So you’ve de-escalated your negative cycle and are taking risks to take new moves and bam you get hit with this response: “it’s nice to hear you say that, but where has that been for the last 20 years?” Defeat sets in and your protective move is at the ready to defend or withdraw. Why does this happen so often when couples are working together to make healthy changes?
Join George and Laurie in today’s episode as we discuss how mistrust in healthier relationship patterns is expected and what to do about it. When the brain is so used to something happening one way for an amount of time, it expects and anticipates it. It’s all a way to create patterns and predictability which the brain loves. What the brain loves is not always healthy for a relationship.
In this episode, we learn how to identify and work with mistrust, create safety around new moves and embrace when we are getting exactly what we’ve longed for for years. This requires us to tolerate the new move without solely relying on the old pattern, embracing the mistrust and getting success with the new. Has this ever happened in your relationship? Make sure to leave us some feedback on our website, foreplayrst.com or on Instagram (@foreplay_sextherapypodcast).
Be brave and keep it hot y’all!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:07.611)
Okay, George, we’re going to talk about how mistrust is part of the process and how eventually, even when we’re worried about the letdown, it’s going to shape our connection later. So we got to prepare for mistrust and know that it’s just, it’s part of what we’re going through when we heal and when we stop the negative cycle.
George (00:29.248)
I love it. Affrainding mistrust. Let’s do it, Laurie.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:38.141)
Say something about patrons.
George (00:49.25)
shout out to our patrons out there. Again, your support is critical. It makes a difference. We know everyone’s overextended, got too much going on, but it’s nice to know there are people out there partnering on us that really makes a difference. So thank you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:03.911)
Right, we’re trying to bring brave love to you, brave talk, and your support really brings the bandwidth. So help us and thank you so much.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:15.931)
Okay, back to mistrust. You’ve been working with people on this with some therapists about this, George, helping them think about this as a natural part of the process.
George (01:29.934)
Yeah, think mistrust is just bad timing, right? It’s usually when something is changing, right? Somebody has a new move, which is what we’re working towards. But whenever you get a new move with a history of the old move thousands of times, it’s usually hard for the body to know what to do with the new move. Even though it’s the thing you’re asking for or want, it’s hard to fully trust it. And that’s just human. I mean, you are not going to change without going through the doorway of mistrust.
But I think, you know, most of the couples I work with, they’re not prepared for the time of mistrust. It’s always bad timing. It blows things up, especially when they’re outside without a therapist’s help. It’s usually the mistrust that sends things sideways. So for our listeners, we’re trying to prepare you for that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:58.504)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:12.519)
And mistrust is when our partner actually starts doing the thing we want them to do or saying the thing we want them to do and we have disbelief. We’re like, where’d that come from? Or that’s odd. I can’t believe you’re saying that now after I’ve been begging for this forever. And we don’t trust the intention, the heart, the truth of our partner’s gift to us.
And of course that just sets us back, right? The ship is moving. The ship is finally moving, going in the direction we want it to do. And our mistrust, I kind of see it as like it slows down the process, right? We can’t just go, wow, that’s awesome. I was with a couple this week, same thing happened.
George (02:58.414)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:03.681)
And the partner said, know, sexist recently, they’ve kind of been mostly sexless. And the partner said, yeah, this last time that we did it, it was fantastic. I was like, what? I mean, even the therapist, was like, what? And I said, can you say that directly to your partner? And they did.
George (03:15.554)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:26.921)
The partner was like, I’ve never heard that before, ever. It wasn’t this like, man, that’s fantastic to hear. Thank you so much for telling me, which is of course the response that helps people glide into fantastic sex. was just, it was like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know.
George (03:46.83)
And how human is that that they might’ve wanted this great sex for 20 years and never gotten it. And then we finally get it in here from their partner. How are the brain’s supposed to know what the hell to do with that? Right? Cause they had so many reps thinking about, Oh, I’ll have to let my partner know it’s not good. It needs to change. mean, it’s, it, and our brain just kind of gets triggered in those moments. But to me, the good news and mistrust is it is the obstacle. It’s the thing that’s stopping change. So now that they’re, it’s out in the open, we can deal with it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:59.151)
I know.
George (04:18.697)
I like to help couples again, going back to the different hats, right? Just to try to stay on mission. So if we’re using this example where the, you know, partner A is the one sharing, they have the red emotional cap, right? They’re the mission. They want to share kind of what’s happening for them. And the other partners in the blue caregiving hat, right? They’re designed to keep the focus on the other person and help them respond to them, comfort them, reassure them.
Right. In the, we all need to switch, but in the mission, that’s what’s happening. So usually the person who’s sharing might say, Hey, you know, I feel so lonely. And usually when I feel lonely, my partner’s walking away, never sees it. Right. And in this moment of sharing our loneliness, the person with the blue hat, because they’re doing a good job and they’re grounded says, I’m so sorry. I didn’t know you felt that way when I walked away. You know, I want, I don’t want you to be alone in that place. I want to help you in that place.
That’s a new move. That’s exactly what we’re going for. Right. What we have to be ready for those when this part that does it say, this is the withdraw with the caregiving comes back. How the heck is that pursuer supposed to trust it? So that’s where the pursue in this example is like, well, you know, I’m glad you want to help me, but you know, why have you not helped me for the last 20 years? I mean, can’t you see that they’re going away is, is bad and you, you can’t do that. Here comes the criticism because that is what the brain has dealt with. Like for
decades, but look at the time in it at mistrust. tells the withdraw, they’re doing it wrong. And it causes them to leave the blue hat, the caregiving role and put on their own red hat. Now, because now they’re in distress, they’re being criticized. It feels unfair. They want to protect themselves. They want to defend themselves. And now both partners in red hats, neither one of them getting care given in the negative cycle takes over the space. So when it was working well, here comes the mistrust and he didn’t have a plan for the mistrust.
So that’s really the spirit of what we’re to talk about today.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:15.273)
So I mean, I think it’s natural, right? You’re talking about this natural doubt that we all have as things change. But we have to have a plan for that because we have to know it’s part of the change process. So what do we do, George? What’s the plan to say, OK, this is going to come up. How am I going to handle it?
George (06:20.259)
Yeah.
George (06:40.622)
Yeah, I think part of the role of the blue hat is when you give caregiving, because that often has never happened in the space of this person sharing your partner, it’s very likely that they’re going to be triggered in mistrust. And for you to be able to try to not take that personal, not let it take over your emotional system, to stay in the role of the caregiver and to try to give permission for the mistrust, right? You’d feel the same way if you never got something and you finally did.
It’s hard for your body to not say, be careful here. Cause if you really allow yourself to hope for this and believe this is going to happen and that old stuff that usually always does happen comes back, it’s going to hurt a lot. So mistrust is just the wisdom of our body, trying to lower expectations, not get hurt.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:27.015)
Yeah, it’s protection from hope. Right? If I trust it, then I’ll let myself expect it and I’m going to be disappointed again. So mistrust is saying, I’m going to be cautious here. I’m going to wait and see. I want a pattern. I don’t know if I can take this first gift in. Maybe after 50 gifts, then I’ll be able to trust again.
George (07:29.536)
Exactly.
George (07:56.035)
love that. So both sides got to try to protect the other in this. If you’re going to the person in mistrust, you have good reasons for your caution, but it’s not really great timing for your partner who’s trying something new, right? You know, instead of giving them a good job, they can’t be told they’re doing it wrong and reminded all the other times they do it wrong. Right? So, you know, that that’s part of the person responding could put a little bit of that kind of awareness into, but first I’m trying to start with the person who’s responding.
to be ready for the mistrust because when they are and they actually give permission, they don’t take the bait. They’re able to say like, yeah, totally makes sense that you don’t trust this. Most of the time I walk away, right? And here I am trying to come closer so you’re not alone and you don’t know what to do with that. And that’s totally makes sense. I think we’re more to practice. You’ll trust that it’s okay to mistrust. What do you think that would be like to hear? Lori.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:47.719)
Yeah, I mean, obviously, both parties are co creating change. And we’re saying if we give the gift
George (08:54.872)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:59.561)
we’re gonna be ready that our partner is going to not trust it. But also if we’re receiving the gift in those early stages, if we can, we wanna think about, even if I get what I want, I’m gonna feel anxious about that, but I’m gonna discourage my partner if I don’t encourage their little moments. One of the things I see that’s so common, George, is
in a couple dynamic where initiation sexually has shut down. And maybe it’s shut down, frankly, because the partner who initiated the most was rejected all the time. But then the partner who’s doing the rejecting says, you don’t really initiate. You don’t really initiate anymore the way I like it, with confidence, with force, with energy.
And so the partner’s like, what? With your mojo. So then the partner goes again and tries, but they’re anxious, right? And then they do initiate, they try a new move, they try something goofy or silly or they pretend confidence and it doesn’t quite fly.
George (09:58.125)
with your mojo with your mojo
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:25.905)
And their partner is like, really? I mean, this is what I’m talking about. It really didn’t go well. And they shoot them down because they don’t trust that their partner is really coming for them. And I think that that’s such a common way. Like, I don’t really trust that my partner will.
you know, wants me or will be able to do this in a way that satisfies me. And so the early efforts are shut down. then that just we’re right back in it right back in the cycle of nothing’s working.
George (10:57.356)
Yeah, I like that. think the person in mistrust can give a broader message, not just let the mistrust say the whole message. So if you’re able to say, really appreciate you trying, I know this is different, I just have this caution. You’re making room for the mistrust without the mistrust telling the whole story. That’s, I think, the way of protecting your partner from your own mistrust.
Right. Is seeing the bigger picture, seeing the context of which this is unfolding. It is actually because your partner is doing something right. That allows your body to feel the mistrust. mean, that’s the good news. That’s what I hope a big takeaway from our listeners are when you have mistrust, it usually is because you got the seeds of change starting to happen. Right. And, and this is the body not sure what to do with it. You’re, you’re doing a good job as a couple. When you get mistrust, it’s just how you handle the mistrust together. If both partners are ready for it.
it doesn’t derail us, it’s actually an opportunity to build more trust.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:54.121)
Even as a therapist, know, when I see the mistrust, part of me just like deflates, you know, like, please give the response that I want you to give to your partner who’s trying this new thing who’s saying something new. It’s like
this is what you’ve been longing for, please, please give them that big expression back, you know, which is I know what the partner is longing for. I mean, I, I can kind of feel it to that deflating stuff when the mistrust comes up.
George (12:35.062)
Yeah, I just did a live session where the partner took a vulnerable risk, which are the pursuer responds beautifully in a way that was totally open with caregiving, which I was ready for her mistrust and block, but she responded beautifully and like clockwork, he couldn’t take it in. How could he never had that before? Right. But being ready for that, helping him put words to
You know, he was able to turn to her and say, like, I do trust you love me and you want to show up for me here. I’m just really scared that, you know, if I let that in now and we go home after this session and we just go back to what we always do, it’s going to hurt me so much more. And I really would rather not feel that hurt. So that’s why I’m pushing you away. Right. He’s explaining his mistrust.
And now his wife hears that and it’s like, makes a lot of sense. You’re not doing anything wrong. Pushing me away right now. You’re just trying to protect yourself. Thank you for letting me into your world. And then he took that in, right? Her permission for his mistrust was the very thing that started to build that connection between the two of them. I think that’s the opportunity in a mistrust.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:47.225)
Nice. Yeah. Permission to mistrust, to have doubt makes sense. And then that helps the person. Right? Okay.
George (13:59.105)
Let’s come back and roleplay it.
George (14:20.832)
just wing it. We do a fail and a nail. So we could be the couple and one of us risk the other mistrust or one of us responds and mistrust. What do we want to do? Do you want to do sex? We’d be Joey Maria. Let’s use your example where you actually initiate and then I don’t trust it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:44.617)
Okay, so let’s do a little role play. I’ll be Maria, you be Joey. Maybe, we know that this is a traditional sort of male initiator, female withdraw. And let’s say Maria initiates sex and Joey is like doubting and mistrusting.
George (15:09.816)
Sounds good. I’m trying to, yeah, so you’re going to initiate. All right. OK.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:21.843)
So, Joey, I’ve been kind of thinking about you all day today.
George (15:28.974)
Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:31.401)
I was thinking, you know, our oldest is going to be at their sleepover for their friends and I was thinking we could put little Jamie to bed early and I don’t know, I was just kind of hoping maybe we could go out on the porch and have some wine and talk and get sexy and think about…
George (16:08.99)
I’m kind of surprised you’re bringing this up. You know, we haven’t had sex in two weeks, so I kind of thought it just fell off your radar. And, you know, I’ve been pretty frustrated with that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:22.729)
And now I don’t want to have sex with you. Not at all. It’s like that just killed my sexy mood.
George (16:25.143)
I’m
Again, that’s how quick it is,
George (16:39.05)
And this is so many of us go into these conversations. mean, shouldn’t part of Maria, knowing that Joey goes to criticism whenever he’s feeling threatened around the sexual cycle, that that mistrust might kick in at this moment? I mean, we’ve got to prepare Maria for that. And we’ve got to prepare Joey for that’s probably going to be really bad timing for Maria, who’s finally doing the very thing he wants. He’s probably not going to trust it.
And then when he brings, puts words to his mistrust, it’s going to be a terrible kind of rejection timing for Maria. I mean, there’s just a setup, right, for both of us in this conversation. That’s pretty predictable. And if couples can see that coming, they can kind of try to come into it a little differently.
George (17:33.903)
Well, I want to try to introduce my mistrust in a way maybe you could hear it and you could try to get to a point of giving permission for my mistrust, which I don’t get. But can you see that miss? But in that miss, not only does it suck for Maria who took the risk, it sucks for Joey because he never gets permission for his mistrust. It just gets pathologized. Like he has nothing better to do, be critical.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:39.011)
yeah, yeah. I get you. I understand that. I understand the mission.
George (17:57.443)
When it’s just as body’s way of trying to protect them, it’s a loss for both of us. And that’s why we want to see this moment that both of us need to do something differently. If we’re going to have success here, let’s do take two. Take two.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:06.185)
Okay. Take two. Okay. So hun, I, you know, uh, had a good, day today. I just had some downtime and I took a nap and when the kids were at school and I just, I don’t know, I
I’ve been kind of thinking about tonight because our son is on a sleepover and we can put Jamie to bed early and I was just thinking, oh, wouldn’t it be nice for you and I to rendezvous outside, glass of wine tonight and then, I don’t know, I was feeling a little sexy. was thinking then we could go up, take a bath, have some time, some music, cancel light. What do you think?
George (18:59.31)
I really love, even when you say rendezvous, like there’s something that I know is you taking a risk and you initiating, which is the very thing I’m always asking for. So I do, well, I so appreciate that. you know, I just, it might not be the greatest time, but I just, I don’t know, I’m finding it hard to make the transition just because I’ve been a bit frustrated that we.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:10.791)
That’s my French baby.
George (19:26.742)
Haven’t been talking to each other about this and I’m not trying to ruin the mood. just want to, kind of want to like let this thing go. This part of me that wants to say, you know, Hey, you know, we haven’t been addressing this for the last couple of weeks. And now I got this, it’s like this beautiful meal before me and my, I’m trying to get out of that frustration because that is what I want the most is to connect with you this way. It’s what’s most important to me. So I’m sorry about my frustration, but it’s just, I’m trying to kind of.
Be honest with you and try to make this transition.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:59.561)
I know. Well, I mean, I think you’re right. I have been really preoccupied lately and sex has been off my brain. and I know that frustrates you. And I think, you know, I get it. I get why you.
would not just be jumping at this because I think what I’m hearing you say is, well, this is a great idea. And you want me to say these kinds of things. You really, really need the pattern to change. And when I’ve been preoccupied for two weeks, you’re like, here I am starving. And this meal before me sounds good, but I don’t want to starve again for two weeks. Is that what you’re feeling?
George (20:52.01)
Exactly. You know what, now I’m ready to eat. So thank you. Let’s go.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:56.713)
Okay, can we do it tomorrow night now? My mood is a little off. No, I know. you know, I think, okay, let’s go just a little bit further. I think that, yeah, it’s hard, you know, right? It’s hard for me to be rejected because I’m trying to be vulnerable here, but I do understand you. just…
George (20:58.496)
You
Alright, now let’s get back to the rendezvous. Forget I said anything.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:26.491)
Maybe what we could do to kind of reconnect is, you know, we’ll put Jamie in front of the television and go for a walk around the neighborhood and try to get that sexy vibe back. And I mean, I, I, I understand that, you know.
George (21:41.871)
I hear you. Yeah. Again, sometimes the timer wasn’t right and I appreciate you understanding me because I feel like that’s all I needed. I’m ready to go now, but the time is then is not great for you. So you just need a a little time to make sense of, you know, killing your little mojo there and, and now I want to take a walk to tap back into it. And, you know, I’m sorry for the timing of it, but whatever it takes, cause I do love this part of you. do.
It’s so beautiful when you kind of want something for you and like, I’m really sorry I screwed up the timing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:17.705)
It’s okay, you didn’t screw it up. think I understand why you were doing, know, saying what you said. just, you know, now I gotta like come out of this again. And I want to. So I just think if I spend some time with you, maybe we can hold hands, walk, talk about the day. You know, I think you’re right to have concerns about our pattern and…
George (22:32.695)
No.
George (22:53.292)
I think we’re both doing something differently here and having this conversation. I feel like you’re understanding me and I understand what’s happening for you and I wanna help you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:03.613)
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean, I think that in a moment, in a sexual moment, if we do talk about those things, it very likely could kill the moment. I think it’s okay to talk about them. You know, the idea is to win the war, not every battle. And it is hard to give up one moment of lovemaking when you need it and want it.
George (23:34.253)
Yeah, I like, I like the concept. Emily Nagoski talks about the map and having the rooms. You can’t just jump into the bedroom. Sometimes you need that transition room. Right? So you were ready for the bedroom. Unfortunately, I wasn’t ready for the bedroom, right? Cause my frustration was getting in the way and you giving me permission for my frustration. Like you met me in that room. Now I can get back into the, into the bedroom, but it puts you at the bedroom. So now you need a walk, right? That’s your transition room.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:59.913)
Put me out of Yeah.
George (24:02.402)
I mean, I think a lot of couples need transitions to get from where they are to the bedroom and they just can’t make that just instantaneously. So taking that walk, that distraction, whatever it is to help your body get ready to think more erotically. Sometimes it’s hard to do like going from the dishes right into the bedroom. Like we need something to kind of get our body geared up for
George (24:29.282)
But I liked how you gave me permission. I felt really good when you gave me permission for my frustration. I wish I didn’t have it. I wish it wasn’t here for the last two weeks. I wish it wasn’t screaming in my head the moment you’re reaching towards me. But it is. It’s a choice of what I’m going to do with that. Right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:47.433)
Oh yeah, I mean I totally know that. You know, as a sexual pursuer every once in a while I’ll complain to my husband, know, it’s been two weeks or whatever and he’ll be like, let’s go to bed right now. I’m like, no, I’m not that space anymore, you know.
George (25:07.768)
Yeah. And I think I tried to bring it up in a way that honored where you were at. I knew what you were doing was a risky thing to do. knew my, I took ownership of my, for the time of that. Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:17.821)
Yeah, it was very gentle, very soft, and also kind of validating for the risk. You kind of said, okay, that rendezvous thing, that was sexy. So there was encouragement in it shaping toward that, but then there was honesty of, I’m still concerned.
George (25:43.63)
but we did a lot of things differently. You were open to my mistrust and gave her permission, right? You were, I was trying to protect you from my mistrust and the timing of it all. Like both of us weren’t surprised by the mistrust. We had a plan for the mistrust, which allowed us to transition towards, we’re probably gonna have sex tonight, right? That’s where we didn’t let this, like the first conversation, that was gonna end really badly for both of us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:13.137)
And I think that Maria’s honesty about, now I’m out of the bedroom, you know, but she didn’t give up altogether. She’s like, okay, there’s another direction. Now I’m going to need to recover from this, but I’m willing to recover. What do I need? You know, she was sort of direct in asking for what she needed to get back into that sexy place. So, you know, going for the walk.
George (26:41.006)
and for all the Maria’s out there that you have to prepare yourself for that. And no, takes a lot of courage to just initiate. You also have to be prepared when you do the timing, you might run into some mistrust, like not to be shocked by it. That’s likely to happen when you try a new move on either side. When one partner tries a new move, it likely runs into some mistrust. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just bad timing that we can work with.
George (27:10.787)
Nice.
George (27:14.272)
as trust as your friend if you see opportunity in it. Your ability to give it permission is how you kind of build the trust. And before you know it, these moments that could send you sideways become moments that you find yourself closer to each other.
George (27:34.072)
But friend, mistrust everyone.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:36.967)
and keep it hot.
George (27:39.053)
And keep it hot, baby.
