Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode we are discussing the role and inner world of the sexual pursuer.
Join Laurie and George for an expert role play to learn how the sexual pursuer can clearly communicate their feelings and needs without defense and blame. They highlight that the pursuer often focuses on changing the behavior of the withdrawer but it is more effective when they can share their vulnerability to their partner.
Our hosts remind us that initiating sex is a secure move in a relationship. The anxiety that develops is problematic and creates the negative cycle. Listen in to learn how to stay present with your own experience, communicate securely and work with your partner regarding your sexual worlds.
We break down these roles very clearly in our book Brave Love, Great Sex. It’s out next week, make sure to grab your copy today!
Check out this episode’s sponsor (and help the pod!):
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s favorite personal lubricant for the last 25 years! Check it out, it’s great! Use ‘BraveLove’ at checkout to let them know we sent you (and get a discount)!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:19.186)
Now we get to talk about my favorite subject, George. Sexual pursuers. Do you know when you we met you said no way, no how could I be a sexual pursuer? What do you think now?
george (03:30.815)
I think I was wrong.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:32.948)
Let’s talk about us.
george (03:36.472)
Let’s talk about us. You’re gonna get a double sexual pursuer perspective today around.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:44.229)
I know. And we’re waiting on our book to come out September 15th. So exciting. So if you are just listening with us, l trying to figure out these pursuer withdrawal positions, it’s all written down. We’ve done a ton of research to make it really clear for you in Brave Love Great Sex, our new book. Available everywhere.
george (04:09.175)
We’re almost there, people. Get out there. We we’re gonna stop talking about it. Next week we’ll launch it. Then we can let this baby fly and do its thing. And we’re just, you know, we do believe in it and we think it can make a difference. And all your support really matters so much to us. And we it’s kind of cool to get feedback. People send you an email.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:27.304)
Wait, wait. You’re you must have jiggled your wire. You jiggled your wire, buddy. Say it again.
george (04:32.992)
Not then.
george (04:36.577)
Hello, hello, hello.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:39.796)
It’s funny, it just like suddenly went low. You know what? I’ve hired a sound guy to come and talk to us.
george (04:49.549)
It’s I don’t know what he can do with the equipment, but is it better or no?
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:53.64)
Yeah, mm partially.
george (04:56.013)
Hello, hello.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:02.376)
Not really. Not as loud as it was.
george (05:06.349)
Alá, aloa, alá, aloa.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:07.794)
Better. Yeah. Case pick up again. Hey, you know, be enthusiastic about the book.
george (05:09.645)
All right, well.
george (05:17.608)
george (05:25.697)
I know it seems like we’re talking a lot about this book all the time, but that’s because we really believe in its message. You know, we we we do need your support. We got this last week beforehand and next week we’re gonna let this baby fly, put it out into the universe, put it in God’s hands and see what happens. But we really we we believe it can make a a big difference and we so appreciate all your support with this.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:50.002)
Yay. Okay, back to our favorite subject. Asking for sex.
george (05:57.281)
yes, these sexual pursuers, they are so much life force, right, Lori?
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:57.429)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:03.294)
So much life force, you know. I I think that sex for me is such a tangible place of love and it it really, you know, does kind of express that part of me that feels so alive. I I don’t think I feel as alive in any other area than I do when I’m having sex. That that is the pinnacle for me. Kind of the joy, our laughter, our having fun together.
The whole experience of orgasm, I mean, that is really the high of all highs for me. Well, except for maybe my grandchildren, but okay. It’s coming close. It’s coming close these days. Good lord. Different types of highs, yeah.
george (06:41.831)
It’s different types of highs, different types of highs. Right. And it’s just not even what happens in the bedroom, right? It’s the anticipation during the day. It’s kind of just looking forward to it. It’s the it’s it’s the memories of it happening in the past that you can get a quick high from just thinking about it. I mean, it is a life force, and it’s it is a good reason why so many people, this is their primary way into connection.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:57.305)
yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:10.622)
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. And I think, you know, I do have a rather intense focus on sexuality. And and this is probably the part of me that can get hyperactivated because pursuers, initiating six sex is not necessarily pursuing, right? That’s just secure. We we ask our partner, we accept no, we accept yes, it’s whatever. But yeah, I kind of like get an intense focus on it in a way because
I mean, for all the good reasons, but also because it is for me kind of this place that I I want to feel and experience being chosen and being wanted. And it it matters more to me there than it does maybe in the emotional cycle. Even though I’m also an emotional pursuer, true confessions. My poor husband. Yeah.
george (08:00.525)
Two confessions. Double whammy of it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:04.36)
Double whammy.
george (08:06.487)
Well, we for sometimes with the withdrawers it’s harder to see the healthy function, right? To but we see the healthy functions with the pursuer that they want. It’s it’s so much easier to see the longing behind it. They want something healthy, they want something that’s connecting. And when it doesn’t happen though, it sets it emotional all these other parts that kind of complicate the work with pursuers.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:29.876)
Yeah. I mean I think sexual pursuers, I mean, first of all, they keep the ro the relationship romantic. I mean, it it’s more than just a friendship, right? They they want it to be sexual, which sets us apart from our relationships with kind of everybody else, usually. I mean, certainly there’s different structures out there, but in general, if you’re married or in a monogamous relationship, that’s that’s kind of the thing that makes it special. So
Their push is what their push is what makes the relationship exciting, spicy.
george (09:11.169)
Yeah, again, I love that we’re connecting to the healthy function of what it’s trying to do. Cause it could get so lost in how they pursue. And that’s also part of the equation, which we knew we’re gonna spend a lot of time on. But that’s you know, how do we we honor that longing and then what happens to it? Because it’s always part of a cycle, right? And that this is what turns the health into something that starts to turn more negative, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:37.619)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think sexual reach is relational. You know, overall it’s it is a healthy thing that people are doing. I think it’s anxiety when that comes into the cycle that really starts to send things skew up, you know, because then you might over ask, right? You’re not asking just when you have desire, but you’re thinking, if I don’t ask, you know, so many times a week, then
you know, I may not even get once a week. And that that anxiety definitely distorts desire. It distorts the relationship between the two.
george (10:19.029)
It’s such an important point, right? That this trying to distinguish between these healthy longings to connect and the anxiety that happens when your partner doesn’t share the same it’s the rejection piece, right? When we get rejected, our body remembers the hurt of that rejection and it tries to not have it again. Anxiety is just trying to forecast what could happen. And before you know it, the longings get squished by the anxiety.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:47.986)
Right, right. And then I mean the problem is is anxiety reduces eroticism. And so so the reach might not be as sexy. It’s more demanding. It’s you know, it can be angry. It’s like, you never want to have sex with me. It’s like, okay, that that’s really sexy, you know. I mean, do people really expect their partner to go, you’re right, I don’t. my gosh, let’s go to bed, honey. Let me put on some lingerie or
george (11:06.305)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:15.742)
You know, if they’re a woman, I suppose. You know, but no. It the the anger, then the escalation inside because that anxiety does something to us and changes the cycle, you know, just shuts down the sexy part of sex.
george (11:32.642)
And this to me is the hardest part of the work for a sexual pursuit is getting that mojo back. It’s like, you know, my relationship, it’s so much easier to hedge my bets from the rejection by asking a way that’s not too risky, right? So what do you think? we get a little alone time tonight. Like that isn’t too sexy. It’s not it’s not too inviting, but you know what? It it it is protecting me from well, it’s not a good night.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:58.985)
Vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah. The rejection. Yeah.
george (12:00.096)
It w it’s from the rejection piece. So this it’s this balance between that longing and anxiety I think is really, really important.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:09.224)
Yeah, definitely. I I know for me too, like one of the things I had to learn, I was more of a toucher to initiate sex. And my husband w that felt really invasive to him. And he was definitely needed to be asked. you know, he he and he actually likes to be asked directly. He likes to know what’s coming. So it’s not like, Hey, can we have some alone time? It’s like, hey.
Do you wanna have sex tonight? You know, I mean he likes likes it plainly stated. And if I come up behind him and start touching him, it’s like, no, that just does not work. He you know, because he’s not ready. You know, so we gotta gotta learn our our our buddies.
george (12:55.725)
Partners language, but we also want to make space for the years and years of rejection that accumulate, which is why I mean no pursuer wants to come across as critical, but it’s kind of what happens to a nervous system when we’re anticipating that that’s what a negative cycle does to a pursuer’s nervous system. So if you’re out there saying, Yeah, I I guess, you know, a lot of times I do come across a little pushy or critical, that’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:57.3)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:13.703)
It does.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:20.596)
Mm.
george (13:21.025)
The reason why is because your nervous system is already trying to protect you. It’s already picking up a threat while you’re trying to reach out and initiate sex. Can you see the complexity of that moment? It’s like your body wants something so healthy, but it’s also anticipating the threat simultaneously. So it sends a very mixed signal.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:38.897)
It does. It really does. It it doesn’t sound send the clear invitation that we want it to send. And it does make sense. And I’ve talked to hundreds of sexual pursuers, thousands probably at this point, who say, Lori, I’ve tried everything. I’ve tried dinners. I’ve tried dates. I’ve tried subtle. I’ve tried overt. I’ve tried cards. I’ve tried notes. I’ve tried texts from work. I’ve
Paid attention, I’ve taken out the garbage, I’ve done, I’ve responded to all their requests, and it still doesn’t turn the corner where they want sex. Got the cleanest dishes in the neighborhood, damn it. And my partner’s still not turned on. Yeah, I I know that can be really frustrating. Like very sympathetic.
george (14:15.969)
The cleanest ditches dishes in the neighborhood.
george (14:31.469)
It’s it’s discouraging, but what’s the option? It’s not a great option. Either I try and I get rejected or I don’t have sex this way I feel connected in the world. And they get often stuck in that dilemma.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:42.388)
Yeah, exactly.
george (14:46.389)
Not easy stuff, right? And we’ll but there is a focus of like you were saying there. So they’ve tried everything. They wind up always focusing on their partner, always trying to change their partner. And when your brain is always focused on the other person, right? We’re really sexy as coming from a place of self, understanding our own longings and kind of come forward, leading with those self longings. And yet a lot of pursuers lose that over time. They get so focused on their partner.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:47.568)
Not easy stuff. But I
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:16.66)
And it you know, it is hard. It is hard to keep soft and to keep pursuing and to to keep that vulnerability up when you’ve been rejected a thousand million times. you know, and I I talk with people a lot who are burnt out, burnt out sexual pursuers. And it’s not a good place, you know, because they really are vulnerable then to others.
They’re vulnerable to letting the relationship just kinda go and become flat. it it’s it’s very difficult. So we’re in great sympathy with you. We we do think therapy helps. I do see tons of sexual relationships turn around. And I you know, I think if your partner is at all willing to explore it with you, and we know, you know, that not everybody is, you know, and sometimes that’s the cycle.
You know, they’ve just been pushed over the edge. but sometimes it is they are willing to think about it and and man man.
george (16:21.205)
And just to clarify, yep, to clarify that term a burnt out pursue is just somebody has been rejected so much, they’re no longer pursuing. They start to give up, they start to retreat, they resign themselves, it’s not gonna happen. Right. This is why couples stop having sex. Twenty percent of couples out there are having no sex at all because of this. That pursue is like it’s not worth the rejection anymore and the negative cycle. So we just give up and yeah, that’s that’s a really bad sign for the relationship.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:42.686)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:48.21)
Yeah, that is definitely a bad sign. for the stability of the relationship. Certainly people make accommodations and you know, I I know that there’s people out there who say, Well, you know, why don’t they do open the relationship and get their sexual needs met elsewhere? But it’s like if you are sort of more traditional and want the person you’re in love with to be the person you’re having sex with, that that is not much of a solution.
You know, it’s like I I don’t actually want to have sex with other people. I want to have sex with this person. And I mean, I I know and I’m not saying that people can’t make those choices, but it’s like it’s almost like, well, there’s this option. It’s like, yeah, but if you want your person, your relationship to be romantic, which includes emotional and sexual connection, you know, that just that feels like almost like they’re not listening, you know.
Or that people who suggest that aren’t listening to the pain and the anguish of having your one and only not be available to you sexually.
george (17:55.414)
And that’s the key, it’s being able to talk about that pain, which is kind of contraintuitive for a lot of pursuers who are focusing on that partner. So let’s come back and and talk about it, what what that looks like.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:11.764)
Okay, the pain that they’re feeling, how do we get them to express this in ways that are deeply vulnerable and kind of winsome and draw their partner to them?
george (18:24.811)
Yeah, this this is the the really the new move. The old move is let me focus on changing my partner and not talking about myself. Right. We’re really inviting pursuers to go inward, to listen to their own emotional signals, that vulnerability, that rejection that you’re trying to avoid actually has some of the answers, right? Because it’s telling us what our heart is longing for.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:47.784)
Yeah.
george (18:47.861)
Right. The opposite of rejection is to be wanted, to have your partner’s engagement and interest and initiation. And like that is what we’re looking for. And when we don’t get it, it hurts. So how do we share that with our
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:58.163)
Right.
Yeah. I mean, this is something that we structure in therapy and sometimes I do think that’s the safest place to have this conversation, you know, because oftentimes sexual pursuers need support too. They need somebody who can care for them and not see them as a bad person for, you know, wanting sex or understand that it’s it’s different. I I think that we want them to talk about a couple of things. The the
The secure part of sex, how it makes them feel chosen, desired, and wanted. I think that sometimes sexual pursuers also burden sex, ironically, with attachment needs. Not that sex doesn’t bring attachment, it really does. But sometimes we put on it like, if you don’t have sex with me, then you don’t want me or you don’t love me. And that actually adds this layer of burden.
george (19:59.918)
I show you up.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:00.594)
pressure, right? that doesn’t help. But so if we can help them identify what am I telling myself that, you know, sex other than pleasure and intimacy will give me? You know, will it give me this this sense that my partner will never leave me or you know, I I just know that sometimes people burden it up too much. I read this book when I was first becoming a sex therapist called I’d rather eat chocolate.
george (20:30.231)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:30.45)
And it was a really beautiful book about a sexual withdrawer whose partner was a sexual pursuer, not you know, did not get all undone when this person did not want to have sex, stayed very centered, but also said, you know, for me, I need a relationship that’s sexual. You know, it’s it’s okay if you don’t want that. I need to know that. And I love you and I’m gonna hang on to you, you know.
while you’re working this through, but I just need you to know it for me, this is what a relationship looks like. It it has to have sex. And the guy just like stayed there. You know, he didn’t threaten, he didn’t put a timeline on it. I think he gave her a few years. You know, and eventually she was like, Okay, this relationship will be over if if I don’t somehow or another find
impetus inside to become more sex sexual and be more interested in my own sexuality. I mean, I think it was such a beautiful story about a person who is does find sex as the deepest path of connection, but did not get angry, you know, did not nag, did not go through the whole thing, but w just simply stayed there. I know. I know we’re different in this way and I just need you to know what I need. It’s like oof. So har
george (21:52.312)
Yeah. It sounds easy. We want to keep it simple and we recognize how hard it is to be to risk direct signals when you have a history of being rejected. But I want you to feel a difference between these two. I I’ll be the pursuer for a second, right? The way they might typically do it is with Joey and Maria. You know, Maria, I’m not really sure why you don’t want to have sex, you know, and it’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:05.65)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
george (22:20.127)
It’s not working for us. I mean, we gotta figure this out how to how to how to help you wanna have more sex.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:28.006)
Yeah. it it it is kind of working for me because I really don’t wanna have sex. I you know, I I don’t think about it. I I love you, I love hanging out with you, but yeah, I’m I’m not that into it honestly. I don’t know, just a phase of life, too busy.
george (22:51.841)
Again, notice we’ve break it here, just the focus though is all on Maria.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:57.032)
The focus is on Maria and what how she’s gotta change.
george (22:58.965)
That’s what she’s how she’s got to change, which is the go-to move of most pursuers. They focus on changing their partner, which just puts more pressure on the system. Right. So really trying to do that differently, coming from a place. So let’s wanna do take two?
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:17.172)
Take two.
george (23:23.221)
So Maria
I just, you know, I recognize we’ve created a negative cycle around sex that puts a lot of pressure on you, sets you up for the message you’re failing, sets me up for being rejected. And we’re working on changing that. I mean, I totally know it’s the cycle’s fault. It’s not your fault. You know, and and and I want to get better at speaking about what happens to me, you know, how important sex is for me.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:45.832)
That’s good.
george (23:54.316)
You know, because I I so often focus on you. I really wanna you know, when
I mean, sex starts outside the bedroom for me. When I just thinking about maybe tonight we’re gonna get a little alone time, I actually get really excited. You know, I I get me like my body starts to feel like, you know what, finally like it’s a payoff for all the work. I’m just gonna have a a moment of refuge where just the two of us it just reminds me of why I’m here.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:20.584)
You kinda get motivated and excited. It it sounds like it makes life happy for you.
george (24:23.37)
Yeah, it’s just like
george (24:27.873)
Yeah, I mean it’s it’s happy just thinking about not it’s not only just having it, thinking about it brings me happiness. You know, and and when when for good reasons a negative cycle interrupts that, you know, I I go to a a bad place that starts saying, you know, you if you don’t want it as much as me, maybe it’s because, you know, you’re not into it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:32.892)
Mm-hmm.
george (24:52.309)
And there’s maybe I’m not doing a good job. I start to get insecure. I start to feel like, you know, I start to feel at risk. Like, wait a second, this connection that we have, it’s it’s threatened. And I go to a bad place. So I I guess I never really talk about that. I I I I I don’t normally know how to talk about my own heart and my own fears. And I I just wanna let you in so I don’t have to face those things alone all the time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:21.746)
Yeah, yeah, I I appreciate you saying it this way. It’s you’re right. I I guess I don’t I don’t think about it a lot from your perspective. I just kind of feel the pressure and then I shut down and it’s hard for me to kinda come over to your side of the table and listen to what it must be like. I mean, I I kind of agree you deserve sex and
I know it makes you happy and I want you to have the things that make you happy. I just you know, when it comes right down to doing it, everything in me just goes through this, I don’t know, shutdown and awkward and resistance. And then, you know, I kind of say, Yeah, yeah, we’ll do it and then when we get to it I don’t want to, but
I can imagine for you if I’ve said, Yeah, yeah, all afternoon, you’re just kinda thinking, Great, well, we’re gonna have sex tonight and then my body just slams shut or my mind slams shut. I’m not sure. but it must it must let you down.
george (26:27.285)
Yeah, and I’m just recognizing how much easier it is for me to be angry at that. Because if I feel a sense of control and like how unfair it is. And it’s just I can get be mad at you, but it just gets me away from the bad feeling. Like I I don’t I feel I feel alone. I feel bad. I feel kind of helpless and a bit hopeless. And I want to get better at at speaking about that place because I know you can help with that if I if I can get better at speaking about it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:40.595)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:48.232)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:54.568)
Yeah, I think I can. And when we talk like this, I don’t feel the pressure. I mean, I feel like we’re becoming a team to work on this together. I feel like you’re kind of listening to me now too. And that feels good. You know. I I really appreciate the lack of anger here. You know, ’cause I when when anger enters this conversation, I just I’m gone. You know, ’cause it f it feels like
george (27:08.343)
Mm-hmm.
george (27:20.461)
Yeah. It’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:24.092)
terrible for somebody to be angry ’cause you won’t have sex. I mean, that’s like counterintuitive. I mean, ugh.
george (27:31.446)
Yeah, I’m I’m fighting it. Like it’s amazing how easy my brain wants to go towards focusing on what’s happening, you’re doing or not doing, and how hard it is to stay focused on me. You know, and I know we’ve been talking about I need to ask for help. And I’m like, what the heck does that even look like? I feel rejected. Can you help me not feel rejected? Just have sex with me. And I go back to thinking about you instead of kind of speaking about this this tender place that frankly I I don’t have a lot of practice talking about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:42.696)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:48.009)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:00.456)
Yeah. Yeah. I
I understand that just having sex with you might help. but I also hear you say, you know, you want me to kind of want you and want sex and I’m not quite sure how to get there, but I think w if we have conversations like this, there isn’t the the wall between us. So it’s gonna be easier. Thank you.
george (28:29.357)
All right, let’s stop there. God bless. That’s another that was Maria taking a little space.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:36.59)
for sure.
george (28:39.319)
Well, we hope again the feeling it felt very different for me, the two different takes, right? To be able to come from a place
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:45.084)
I I think so yeah. I mean, I think if couples could do that, George, I I really think they could solve this problem. Like the pursuer stayed so present and so in his s in his territory, you know, that that did just even then the role play made me feel a lot like, Okay, there’s some possibilities here, you know.
george (29:09.569)
Yeah. And that’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:10.428)
I I mean I think it’s tempting to to wanna defend and go into your own stuff as a withdrawer, but but you stayed really consistent.
george (29:20.479)
It’s the work, right? And my work as a pursuer is to keep the focus on me and resist the urge that wants to focus on changing Maria. And it’s not easy to do. We’re not going to get it perfect, but we just get back to the drawing board. You know, if you want to repair, you get back to a place of coming from self instead of focusing on other. And that self-place is listening so counterintuitive to listen to the rejection instead of trying to stop the rejection and change your partner.
To see the value and the redemptive nature of your own rejection. Cause embedded in that is a longing for support. And how do you ask for that help instead of trying to change a partner? That’s really the the move.
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:59.593)
Right. And that support can come in ways that are not overtly sexual. Like you know, the withdrawer may not be able to, for whatever reason, enter the space sexually, but they can listen, they can say, Gosh, you know, yeah, it must be terrible to be rejected. And they can respond with, you know, positive energy when their partner asks and they don’t want to do it. They can say, I I love your
I love your joke there. I love your ask. but it’s I can’t do it right now, but I love that you asked. Like that’s less rejecting to just to witness the vulnerability that it takes to initiate sex. I think I think more vulnerability is required to initiate sex than there is in initiating conversation because it’s our body. It’s so primitive to to want your partner to touch your body.
george (30:56.907)
And this is where so many of my couples find the hats so helpful, right? The blue hat is the caregiving system. I want your caregiving system, but when I turn it into pressure, I I can’t get it. Right? That’s the beauty of vulnerability. If I can talk about my fear, it pulls that blue hat from Maria. And we have a very different type of conversation. So pursuers go get it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (31:18.16)
Nice. Nice. George and his hats. We should sell those hats, G. Yep. Thanks y’all for listening. Be brave.
george (31:22.656)
Yeah.
george (31:28.151)
Keep it hot, y’all.
Laurie Watson, PhD (31:30.45)
Have some great sex.
