Help! This is not the relationship I signed up for. Did you bait and switch me from the person I said “I do,” too? Welcome Brave Lovers, in today’s episode we are tackling a topic we have heard in our offices over and over again. Hot and heavy, emotionally connected lovers that become distant strangers after marriage, children and more life together.
Listen in as Laurie and George, explain what exactly happens between partners and help us work together to get back to the love that brought you together initially. Listeners will be guided by the steps that withdrawers and pursuers can take to reinvest in the relationship. The opposite of the bait and switch isn’t more sex, it’s attunement to one another’s different needs. How long has your caregiving system been shut off and you have only been focused on your needs that aren’t getting met? It’s time to break free from the negative cycle and see where you can take a step towards your partner.
Make sure to order a copy of our book, Brave Love, Great Sex available for pre-order now!
Check out this episode’s sponsor (and help the pod!):
Uberlube.com – Laurie’s favorite personal lubricant! Use the code BraveLove at checkout!
Transcript
George (01:32.238)
The bait and switch, the oldest game in town, Laurie, let’s talk about it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:45.646)
Woo! Right? Terrible when people feel like this is not the relationship I signed up for. Before I said I do, it was really different.
George (01:56.642)
What happened to the person I used to have?
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:59.934)
Exactly.
George (02:03.309)
Right, we got the book coming out, Laurie. We keep making our push. We need our supporters out there to help us carry this over the finish line, make it the best success it can be. So we really we love your support and we’re just really grateful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:19.191)
Brave Love Great Sacks is available at every bookseller now. So please, if you’re going to buy it, buying it now really helps us. So thank you so much. And
George (02:29.111)
And let us know if you got a study group, you’re buying in a bunch of them, you pass it along on social media. I mean, let us know. Let us let us really appreciate what you’re doing for us, because it it really takes an army.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:42.017)
We have November 14th too our Brave Love Great Sex couples retreat where we’re going to spend a day with you helping you and your partner learn more about each other sexually. There is no pressure to participate in the group.
We have signups on Brave Love Great Sex, our website. And you can come, you can even turn your cameras off, you can change the name on Zoom, you can be totally anonymous, although some people actually do like to share a little bit, which is fun. And we step you through exercises where you are talking to your partner only and really learning about each other. We it’s a big day. It’s a great fun day too. George and I have a good time doing this.
George (03:24.223)
Yes. It is good. You’re gonna have conversations you’ve never had before. And I’ll also give a quick shout out. October first to third is our success and vulnerability lab. Probably my favorite training of therapists during the year because we really just getting together to be creative and get into that therapeutic space and really start unpacking things moment by moment. So come join us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:45.769)
In Vegas, baby. In Vegas, baby. okay.
George (03:48.242)
No, that one’s in Arkansas. Vegas is another training, but the SV lab is in Arkansas and online. So therapists all over the world listen and come join us. Br bring your team. I mean I guarantee it’ll make a big difference.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:00.579)
Great.
George (04:00.715)
So let’s get into it, Laurie. Let’s get into it. I never forget going to the firehouse, you know, as a as a young man. And they were all married. I was like the only single guy. And I and I told them, hey, you know, I’m getting married. Expecting, like, yeah, welcome to the club. They’re like, don’t do it, don’t do it. Like, what has happened? And it’s and so many of these guys would sit down and say, I don’t know what happened. You know, when we were dating, my father wanted sex all the time. I mean, it was incredible. I thought this is like I don’t
The luckiest guy in the world, and all of a sudden you put the ringer on the finger, and a couple of kids later, and it’s like, I don’t recognize this person anymore. No more sex, the shop is closed, they feel so betrayed, so unfairly treated.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:44.803)
And this is so painful if you’re a person who finds sex as your love language, as the way that you feel the most deeply connected. I mean, could there be, as a sexual pursuer, could there be anything that is more powerful that more powerful than making love to your partner and getting this huge physiological reward of an orgasm? I mean, that is a powerful form of connection. And then to say that my partner.
George (05:10.103)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:13.207)
Doesn’t really want to do it. Like, you know, are we just underestimating, George? You think the stress of child rearing and working and building a family and a life together? And we don’t know that on the first side of, you know, the altar. We don’t know what’s coming or what do you think this is?
George (05:31.746)
I think there’s always good reasons, but I really like the label date and switch. It feels like you dangled this this this treat before me and you told me this is what it was gonna be like and I bought it. And then once I bought it, all of a sudden you switch to like, now this is really what you’re gonna get. Like that is the feeling that so many men, you know, have. It’s like this is this is not what I signed up for. Like if I would have known this when we were dating.
Guess what? We would think we would have went down the road we went down. That’s how how much of a betrayal it feels like for so many men. And they have some real deep seated resentment for it. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:09.003)
I have anger. Absolutely. You know, I didn’t marry a low desire woman. I thought I married a woman who was hot in bed. It’s so depressing and and
scary, especially in marriage. I think it becomes dis you know dire to us because we’ve pledged fidelity. This is it for a lifetime. We’re only gonna have sex with you. And it’s like, woo, and you don’t want sex. I mean this is the one place in life, right? The sexual realm where we’re really stuck if we have a monogamous relationship.
George (06:47.105)
Yeah. And it’s it’s that yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:50.003)
And don’t think we’re not coming to the other side, we y’all, just for the record. We know there’s another side to this.
George (06:54.933)
Of course. And that but that switch, you know, when we’re dating, you were initiating. You wanted sex for you. Like you’d be planning things for for us to have sex. Like I I saw how much you wanted it for yourself. This wasn’t something you would just do it for me and throw me a bone. So this new version that it transforms into really is a far stretch from what it used to look like.
Right. So it makes sense why so many people feel like, you know, this bait and switch. And I think the answer is is is complicated, but this is so much of what we talk about in the in the podcast, right? The creation of these negative cycles, you know, the the pressures that people fall into. And there’s a lot happening outside the bedroom that’s influencing why this partner, if we use Joey Maria, Marie don’t want to have sex, you know, it’s just not just about her libido.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:49.368)
Right, exactly. And I think many women would say the same thing. You know, it was bait and switch. You used to listen to me for hours. You used to be interested in me. You cared about what I was going through. You asked me questions about my daily life.
You know, I mean, and suddenly they’re saying, you know, he’s off to work, he’s he’s off doing his own thing, he wants to play games, you know, he’s spending hours on the computer. What happened to that part where my partner had a focus on me? That was what I needed to feel safe, to open up my body, to feel sexual, because those needs were met.
George (08:31.499)
Yeah, and I I haven’t heard women use that term, but I’m glad to hear that you say they are, right? And that bait and switch is the flip side of the same coin. Right. And this is what I hope our male listeners are saying, huh. I don’t really consider it that way. I don’t, I don’t really look at what I’ve done differently since we’ve had married, got married, or banged out a couple of kids, right? Because
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:52.845)
Well, I think I think by the time we get into a negative cycle, nobody is saying, What have I done? We’re saying my partner has denied me sex. I mean I’m shutting down emotionally and maybe the other partner is saying, Yeah, my partner isn’t interested anymore in who I am. They only want my body and I’m really not interested in that kind of sex.
George (08:57.954)
Yeah.
George (09:14.625)
Yeah. And think about why you were listening when you were dating for hours.
It wasn’t something you were just doing to have sex. Like you really were engaged in the story. You wanted to know more about the partner, right? You would have that class of wine and talk for two hours at dinner before sex would happen. How many texts, how many, how many hours on the phone would you spend talking to each other, checking in with each other, seeing what’s happening? I mean, every part of the day, what what did your boss say today? No, you wanted to talk to your boss. I mean, there was eagerness to engage in verbal conversation.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:49.28)
Exactly, exactly. Both people, their needs stop being met for them to feel safe to express to each other the love that they had. For some reason or another, by the time we get married, about two years in, there are a third of couples, George, who are sexless. And that’s because the negative cycle has taken over their positive connection.
One person maybe drawing back sexually, the other person drawing back emotionally, or maybe drawing one person drawing back in both places. It’s because it is so difficult to be in relationship and to learn like how to give, how to give generously. That’s the ticket, right? Curiosity and generous giving that changes the cycle.
George (10:38.071)
Yeah. Right and I think we’re trying to exp expand the frame here.
Right, if you’re using that line bait and switch, are you taking ownership for your piece in it? Right. So for these men saying, hey, you don’t want to be sexual like you used to, well, guess what? Are you seeing how you’re actually not holding your end of the bargain? You’re not giving the engagement, the interest, the intentional, the emotional support, all of those things that are critical for your partner to feel safe and engaged. Right? Bait and switch isn’t actually a fair diagnostic, you know, of what’s happening because it’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:04.715)
Right, exactly.
George (11:11.855)
Leaving out your paint and switch pot on the other side.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:15.819)
Right. The wedding doesn’t end the work that is involved in a relationship. It actually begins it. And I think that we often think
Okay, at the altar, check, done that. Now I have the Candyland experience of a sexual available partner all the time. Now I can go off and do the things that are important to me, right? I’ve done all that work. I’ve courted them. I’ve won them. Now they’re mine and we can always have sex whenever I want it. You know, it isn’t a sense of how do we build desire together? How do we sustain desire in a long term relationship? We think all of us.
George (11:33.069)
Candyland.
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:53.948)
I think get into relationship thinking that desire is something physiological, that it’s just going to come naturally. We don’t realize that we have to build it on purpose.
George (12:06.121)
Yeah, the flip side though, how many women in this situation have to take ownership that yeah, they want to have sex with that there’s oobs of time and attention and like yes, now crazy life, running house, kids, work. There isn’t a much of that attention, right? So does that give them a right to not engage in a way that’s the main way your partner feels safe in the world, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:31.031)
I think the very question is problematic, right? Do we all have rights to not have sex or do we have rights to not engage emotionally? Of course we do. But we have to build a sense of the relationship taking on an importance that is at least equivalent to our own rights. Like, yes, I have a right to not have sex when I don’t want it. Absolutely. I would say don’t have sex when you don’t want it. But also think about what are you building in the relationship? How are you building
your own sense of eroticism that makes you an available, interested party to the sexual relationship that you have pledged to have for the rest of your life.
George (13:13.601)
When they’re dating, both of them are pledging, I’m gonna give you lots of emotional support and listen and pay attention. And I’m gonna give you lots of physical attention. Right? Both are coming to that equation with that. And then all of a sudden, they’re not carrying their end of the bargain in one of those areas. And all we’re trying to do is look at the numbers, people. Right? We have good reasons to get there. People are trying to do the best they can. We’re not pointing the fingers here. We’re just trying to say, hey, if you sit down and you look at how you’ve changed since dating, it’s going to give you really good information about kind of what we need to get back to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:51.074)
I had a young friend that I talked to recently over the holidays and he loves his wife. But he also grew up with in a culture that was not very expressive. And I think he was afraid that he was gonna lose her. He you know, just kind of broke down talking to him.
And I asked him, you know, have you told her these feelings, these tender feelings that I’m seeing as you cry? And as tears streamed down your face about how much she means to you, have you expressed that? He’s like, I did when we got together.
And I mean, it’s kind of an old joke. I you know, I told you once, and if I change my mind, I’ll let you know. But but really, he had not continued that expression of how important she was to him. And she was kind of out and outer space, untethered, unable to find her way to him because she needed that sense of I’m important, who I am, it makes a difference in your life. We need that.
George (14:56.902)
Let’s come back. Let’s come back and talk more.
So we’re really making the connection between when you’re dating, both partners are investing heavily in the emotional and the physical realm of their relationship.
And then in the relationship, it starts to wane one part of this in each each side. And then when that starts to wane, both people get compromised and it influences their ability to show up and the levels of engagement. Right. There’s no blame here. That’s what negative cycles do. They crush levels of engagement. Right. So if we could have this conversation, become aware of this, like we can start doing it differently.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:33.547)
I think yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:39.264)
Exactly. And I just wanna say I think the the difficult thing when I hear the idea of bait and trip bait and switch is that
There’s kind of this deep sense of I’ve been tricked, that my partner purposely tricked me by giving me lots and lots of sex so that I would marry them, only to withdraw that because they really didn’t want it and it wasn’t who they were. That’s this fear that comes forward in people, like, my God, not only have been have I been betrayed, but my partner is really a trickster. I mean it’s their character that comes under suspicion.
George (16:25.655)
Which is why in Brave Love Great Sex, I think one of the big ideas is the, you know, the mega attachment pattern. We’re inviting couples to see the bigger picture, to step out of the tunnel vision. It’s all your wife’s fault that you don’t want to have sex. Or the wife say, It’s all your fault, you don’t want to emotionally talk to me. And neither one of them are seeing the bigger picture, right? Which is the interplay of both of these attachment systems. And that’s the irony. They were getting it right when they were dating. They both were feeling safe in the way they needed to feel safe.
Because they were both getting what they wanted. Right. It probably, if we’re looking at Joey and Maria, Maria liked who she was becoming sexually in the freedom with Joey, right? Because she was feeling so emotionally safe. She can grow sexually, which is what was blossoming for her. And the same with Joey, because he was getting that sex and touch he needed. He could grow emotionally. He liked who he was becoming and he could share parts of himself he didn’t share with anyone else. Like it was such a good template for what we want them to continue to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:58.165)
Exactly.
George (17:25.539)
Doing, but unfortunately the grind of life starts to kind of push that all down.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:31.018)
Exactly. We we end up saying, you know, we were so sexual then and now we’re just like roommates. We’re just getting the work done. We’re functioning. We’re not necessarily having this joyful part of our life. I would I would say for many people, this bind that we see when all the systems are operating on each other, and then somehow or another intimacy, both emotionally and sexually, grinds to a halt.
These are the systems acting on each other. And the good news is, is we know how to help you turn it around so it becomes positive again. That’s what our book, Brave Love, Great Sex, is all about, is how you turn this negative cycle into a positive one where there is emotional connection and erotic intimacy again.
George (18:18.123)
Yes. So if we’re if I’m Joey and you’re Maria, like we I think a lot of us understand that if Maria is not having that attention, that emotional connection, it impacts her sexually. How could it not?
But the flip side of that is also true. And I think we talk less about that. That when Joey isn’t getting the sexual touch and a connection the way he needs to feel safe, it really compromises his ability to want to talk and to listen and to do these things that he does. Where we’re less resourced, the area that’s a little bit more challenging for us, we do less of it. And as you know, both of us do less of what the other person needs, it’s the environment for the cycle to thrive.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:04.543)
Exactly, exactly. And it’s not the opposite of bait and switch is not more sex. The opposite is more attunement to each other’s needs.
You know, where we begin to take responsibility for how we can contribute to each other’s needs, how we can say, You are important to me. You know, I don’t really need to debrief my day. I don’t really want to listen to you talk about the neighbor dilemmas. But you do. You need that. That’s w how you unwind and how you get this off your chest.
And then you’re more free to be with me, to be sexual with me, or to be whatever with me. So we prioritize listening to our partner with attention.
Because that’s how they feel loved. And the same thing goes sexually, right? I know that you’re so stressed out, you know, that you need to kind of unwind, you need an orgasm, frankly, to to feel relief. And so I prioritize in my heart how can I do this in a way that is good for me, that I can give generously, and you feel relief and we feel more connected. Both of those things work, and that was what they were doing when they were courting and dating. That’s what Joey and Maria were doing.
George (20:21.197)
Exactly. Well the bait and switch blames the partner. There’s no ownership. That’s the invitation we’re giving you all listening. Like you need to take ownership for why your partner might not be doing anything you don’t like.
Right. So if I if Mer Joey thinks Maria’s not having sex and she’s kind of breaking her promises, he’s not taking ownership for why that’s likely happening and his contribution to it. That’s the invitation. If I can say to Maria, hey, you know what? I know I haven’t been that guy that I was when we were dating. I didn’t have, I don’t have as much time or engagement or attention or like, and you need those things. There’s nothing wrong with you not f liking, not getting those things and have
That impacts you and it makes you want to shut down physically. Like, I gotta own that. And my that’s actually empowering for me to say this isn’t something within Maria that’s broken. This is something between us that we just gotten away from. And the good news, if you can say that, you take ownership of that, you start giving the attention, watch how things change.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:25.801)
Exactly. Plan plan dates, right? Pursue your partner. Be affectionate without expecting anything else. Cherish your partner. Listen for hours. That’s what was happening in the end. Ask about that’s what was happening in the beginning.
Ask about their feelings, right? These are the things that we can do to make a culture of emotional safety. People say, how do I do that? I don’t know how to do that. It’s like, well you did. You did know how to do it and you did it back then. And I would say sexually as well.
Plan sex dates. Think about the best time of the month, the best time of the day, morning, evening. You know, people always say, Well, I’m a morning person, he’s a night person, we can we can never find sex. I’m like, Y’all work from home. You know, what about a nooner? You know. Okay.
George (22:13.515)
Yeah. Well, let’s see you take ownership for Maria. What can Maria take ownership for?
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:20.749)
Yeah, I think for Maria’s point, right, first of all, she was a woman who liked sex. It wasn’t that she didn’t like sex, it was that she felt pressured, that she didn’t feel intimate with Joey anymore. She would say, I don’t have sex with strangers you know, because she wanted that deep connection. So if I were Maria, I would make the plan. I would say, You know what, I know my partner
George (22:27.169)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:44.351)
likes sex and he feels more relaxed and more connected afterwards and I need that connection. So I’m gonna invite him into the bedroom, get rid get rid of the children for the afternoon. We’re gonna have sex. And then we’re gonna go out to dinner.
And I’m gonna say, you know, I just need you to listen to me. I really need your attention and your focus on several things in my life that are going on. You know, my relationship with my girlfriends. I wanna talk about my family situation. Do you think Joey would be able to give that once his sexual needs are met? Or would he be less motivated? I think the fear in Maria is that he would be less motivated to listen to her if there was no reward coming at the end of the night.
George (23:32.414)
Yeah, no. I most men are filled with oxytocin with some touch. They wanna engage. It it it’s the best environment for them to wanna listen. It’s what they did when you were dating. It’s not a chore when you’re feeling relaxed and connected to wanna listen to somebody. It is when you’re running on empty.
And that’s the piece I think I want Maria to own. That for good reason she’s not feeling emotionally safe. She starts to shut down. Like, what does that do to Joey? That’s not what she was doing to him when they were dating. Right. And that that taken ownership that says I have good reasons to shut down physically, but doing that has consequences. It really compromises Joey’s ability to listen to me. I don’t think a lot of women make that connection.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:15.253)
I also think I wanna say I think that men when women are talking about
Their own day and the conflicts that they faced and their concerns and their worries. In their minds, they’re going, Uh-oh, this is ramping up. She’s going to land in a bad place. We’re not going to have sex tonight. You know, like they see the emotional rise and they get anxious inside because they think it’s going to take away from that pleasant, connected feeling where she’s in a happy mood and they’re going to be able to have sex. So he doesn’t want to give her that, that validation, that and that attention because he’s afraid it will escalate and then she’ll be out of the mood completely. But if they’ve had s if they’ve had sex, there’s no risk in giving attention and validation to their partner’s concerns.
George (24:55.863)
Yeah.
George (25:04.107)
We talked about this in another podcast, the importance of the caregiving system, the motivation. If Joey’s afraid of what’s going to happen in the conversation, it’s about him. It’s not his caregiving system. When he was dating, that was his caregiving system. He wanted to listen. He liked how he felt when she felt heard and she just opened up and she felt seen. Like I felt amazing that he could give her that. It’s a loss for Joey when we can’t get caregiving.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:28.341)
Exactly. Exactly. He’s not concerned about her staying positive, you know, so that he can have sex. He he’s like letting her go. He’s really invested in who she is and what she’s saying and the person of her. And she feels that. She feels that, that deep interest. You can feel it. Yeah.
George (25:47.586)
Mm-hmm. You can feel a difference between which system. You can feel it. There’s a conversation going on without work.
Nonverbally through our energy when we actually want to engage versus we’re doing it out of obligation. Sexually or emotionally, it’s the same thing. And when they’re dating, that’s where we’re shouting out to everyone: listen, like when you’re dating it, you’re doing it right. Your caregiving systems are engaging in the emotional and sexual system, and both people are growing. There’s nothing like love to grow us. And then all of a sudden, the grind of life and these negative cycles start to compromise us, and we start to become a shell of the people we are.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:02.616)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:26.371)
We stop giving. We stop being as generous. We start being anxious about am I going to get my needs met? But generosity is a giving part of us. It says, I care about our needs, my needs and your needs. What makes us happy?
And that place returns desire to us, returns closeness and intimacy to us, and that turns us into a positive cycle where sex is plentiful again, emotional connection is safe.
George (27:00.065)
That’s the shout out to everyone.
Can you actually take ownership for the really good reasons why your caregiving system got blocked? And in doing that, you’ve kind of withheld the very critical thing that that other person has needed to give you what you need, right? Everyone’s running on empty. And if all it takes is one to start getting back to the system of given, that caregiving system, for the we to become more important than the I. And then all of a sudden, we get the benefits of that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:31.381)
Exactly. Thanks for listening.
George (27:33.441)
Keep it hot, y’all.
