Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode, we are delving into the world of the emotional pursuer.
Join our hosts, Laurie and George to talk about what it looks like when a partner is constantly seeking connection, why that pursuit can sometimes feel overwhelming, and how both partners can shift their approach to create a more balanced and secure bond. We look at the underlying attachment needs that drive this behavior and offer practical steps to turn the pursuit into an invitation for closeness.
Make sure to listen in to learn how to navigate these moments and reconnect with your partner! Don’t forget to follow us on our socials @BraveLoveGreatSex for more relationship tips and updates.
Pre-order your copy of Brave Love, Great Sex today; out on September 16th.
Support this episode’s sponsor (and help the ‘pod):
Uberlube.com – Laurie’s long time favorite personal lubricant. Use the code ‘BraveLove’ at checkout!
Transcript
george (00:17.891)
Where does all that screaming come from, Laurie? What is going on here?
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:54.698)
I know. Why do people do that? Let’s talk about what happens with emotional pursuers when they get triggered.
george (01:05.37)
Right, Laurie, we’re getting closer and closer to D Day. September 15th. The book is coming out.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:09.258)
I know. I know. Delivery day. P day, Pub day. Yeah.
george (01:16.463)
Up day. We’re showing that book again. We get it out there. We’re so excited because it’s gonna do its little piece and just getting healthy messages right out there. And we so appreciate our listeners supporting us, these pre-orders, letting people know, giving away his gifts, you know, trying to make that push that first week is critical. After that, you’re gonna hear us talk a lot less about it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:37.838)
But we really hope that it will bring a message to people. We’ve we’ve already had some recognition, right, from the what is it, the biggest the the
It is. The the new big ideas. I’m sorry, I was up till two. The new big ideas.
george (02:02.853)
Pick it up from there.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:05.166)
I don’t know what it is. Yeah, we’ve already had some recognition from the next big idea club, which is a review of all the nonfiction out there and we’ve become a must read from them. So exciting. So wherever books are sold, thanks, thanks y’all.
george (02:19.12)
Got it.
Gotta gotta listen to them, people. So this is our plan. We get so many requests to people talking about am I emotional pursuit? Am I a sexual with your am I this? Am I that? So we figure we’d just take the time instead of rushing it. The next four episodes, we are gonna go over each category, right? And recognizing we’re not just ever one category. This is about flexibility and movement. But the more we’re able to identify some of the reasons we do what we do, we could start having more choice, right? We can start being able to change some of
becoming more flexible.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:52.234)
Exactly, exactly. And emotional pursuers, that would be me. you know, we’re we’re people who usually come from a more anxious attachment style. And, you know, maybe in childhood we learned that we had to push for connection. And so we’re always pushing in our primary relationship, but you know, and we can be different things in different relationships, but usually our primary relationship, our partnership, our marriage.
Is is kind of governed by how we came out of childhood in general. And of course, the whole thing is how do we get to secure attachments so that we do have that flexibility and we do have the ability to feel calm on the inside as well. But emotional pursuers, they they like to talk, they like to share, they they want deep connection usually.
george (03:45.913)
That’s the critical factor. The goal of the pushing is to get connection. I mean, isn’t that a beautiful thing? They want co-regulation and they’re quite creative in how they’re going to go about trying to get that connection. But a lot of times they’re focused because they want connection and they want that other person to connect with. They spend so much energy figuring out how to focus on the other person and get them to do something that their message is what we call view of other. It’s always about the other person and they’re not really coming from what’s happening within them.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:15.138)
That’s right. That’s right. Because we’re because we are a little anxious about what’s happening between us and our partner, we’re always kind of highly attuned to what’s happening in them. You know, we’re looking for subtle changes in our partner’s mood and what’s going on with them. Are they available to us? You know, if my husband walks in the door and maybe he’s come from work or he’s come from helping the children or something.
and he doesn’t look at me when he comes through the door, which is a more normal thing to do, I’m I’m immediately on alert. You know, what’s wrong? Is is there something wrong that happened at the kids house? Is there something that happened at work? Is there something wrong between him and I?
And so that piece kind of sets my heart racing a little bit. It’s like, no, are we gonna be okay? And so my natural tendency as an emotional pursuer is to check in. You know, hey, hey, what’s wrong? What what’s going on? You know, and really what I’m trying to do is get safe to understand the look on my partner’s face, which may be anything or nothing. I mean, I think that’s a problem.
That emotional pursuers tend to kind of overthink things. They ruminate, they maybe obsess about small little glitches in the relationship. And it sends them into that place of fight or flight. And for a pursuer, we’re more about fight. We’re gonna push forward.
george (05:44.229)
want to highlight the there’s a trigger, right? There’s a threat that happens, which activates that alarm system. So that there’s nothing wrong if Laurie comes home and notices, because it matters so much, you know, Derek’s position, that her body says, uh-oh, if he’s not in a good place, that’s not going to be good for me. It’s not going to be good for us. It’s not good for him. So my body notices the threat and immediately wants to do something about it. It wants to go towards the problem, wants to address the problem.
That intent is beautiful. And so often pursuers get pathologized, right? Like they have nothing better to do than be critical. And people miss the starting point that there’s there’s a threat that has happened and their body’s just trying to handle it in the way they’ve learned how to handle it, which a lot of times then the impact isn’t so great, right? Because Derek sees that question as, I’m the problem now. And it sets off his alarm system and the cycle’s up and running.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:13.827)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:22.563)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:38.38)
Yeah, and you’ll like this. I I read a new book by Amir Levine who wrote attached. She’s written a new book called Secure. And he talks about this anxiously attached style that maybe what it really is is a gift that somehow or another we grew up in a way that makes us extra sensitive to the environment. And it’s this kind of superpower. You you manage airwaves around you. You can read things that most people can’t. And he kind of gave
A lot of examples of how typically emotional pursuers really do know the landscape emotionally before anybody else. They know what a tone means. They know that there’s something different and they have this radar that picks up sort of more sensitively than other people. And the good thing is, is it can be very, very useful, you know, in running a company, in managing a family. You kind of know lots of different
george (07:10.157)
Nice, yeah.
george (07:17.561)
Right.
george (07:32.536)
It can be.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:37.923)
things about people almost almost mind reading. You know, so it it’s not necessarily a negative thing. It’s actually a gift to be able to do this. But when it sends you into this kind of fight or flight panic with your partner and and we go through the action tendencies, what we say, you know, of pushing, then we can mess things up between us and our partner.
george (07:38.39)
Anxiety is yep.
george (08:02.522)
Yeah, and that
Heightened baseline that Laurie’s talking about. I mean, a lot of pursuers use the word mental load. They’re overworking in the relationship because they’re they’re overthinking. That’s like that their brain’s attempt to try to make sense, to try to influence the outcome, the f try to have a sense of agency. Like and that willingness to try to kind of make things better or address things causes them to burn a lot of glucose, right? They’re they’re spending a lot of energy managing a lot of things. And and anxiety is great for keeping all the balls in the air. You gotta worry about the kids and my mother in law and my friends and
my boss and my work and like to keep all that rolling, anxiety is good, but it comes at a cost, right? It it starts to make life really a lot about work and grinding and pushing and needing that. And then it’s, you know, it’s like they can become prickly. It’s like a porcupine kind of doing all this work. And then it’s hard to come sometimes alongside. Even though that’s the very thing they want.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:53.006)
Mm, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because we we start to protest. Like I don’t it doesn’t feel right to me. Something’s off. What does it mean when I come upstairs and you you don’t say something to me, like you’re so preoccupied by work, suddenly I don’t know if I matter.
And that threat of do I matter to you s worries me, worries me terribly, right? And so the challenge for pursuers can be sometimes like, How do I vulnerably let out this this need to be told that I do matter instead of the anger and the pushing and the criticism that is going to only push my partner away?
george (09:36.621)
Exactly.
george (09:40.804)
Going, I’m challenging quiet, I still hear them.
george (09:50.755)
So we’re trying to start off connecting with those pursuers that they there’s r good reason behind the push.
But the problem is they’re so focused on changing their partner’s behavior so they don’t feel the anxiety that their own inner world becomes often not expressed. That sense of feeling rejected or scared or lonely or you know, too much, those feelings is never a good time to talk about it, right? Because they’re always trying to focus on that partner. And really that’s the work. The work is trying to get the pursuer to kind of
Take their focus off of their external and all the things that they’re trying to push to change and start looking at who are they and what happens to them.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:32.876)
Yeah. And it’s so vulnerable, right? To to suddenly look at yourself and go, Okay, I feel anxious because I don’t feel connected to you and we’re thinking if I tell my partner this, some of it sounds like the same thing I’ve been saying all along. You know, I I don’t feel connected to you. What’s what’s wrong with us? What’s happening? But I think
What you’re talking about, George, here is we want pursuers to be in touch with the their own inner world and then of course be able to talk about it from a from a need, you know, like figure out, okay, what would make me feel better? What would what do I need from my partner?
george (11:17.05)
Yeah, and to to get to what you need, you have to listen to what is hurting you and what’s scaring you. And the the main thing that most purs pursuers talk about is feeling rejected, feeling like their attempts to connect are not being met, right? Which just hurts. I mean, it universally sucks, right? When you want somebody and they don’t seem to want you back. And that rejection is the core that we’re trying to actually listen to.
Because embedded in the rejection is is what we need. What’s the opposite of rejection? To be accepted, to be wanted, to be seen, interested in, loved, engaged with. I mean, th it’s not rocket science. And that’s the beauty of listening to these feelings.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:55.307)
Exactly. Exactly. And so scary when you feel like this is the person who’s rejecting you to come up and say something like that. Like, I just want to be seen. I want you to love on me. I want you to be with me. Maybe hold me, listen to me. I mean, all of those things feel very, very needy. And we’ve learned since early on in our life that being needy just doesn’t work.
george (12:23.286)
Not attractive. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:24.512)
Not attractive, exactly, exactly.
george (12:26.252)
So it’s is counterintuitive to share this because your best attempts to have all the answers, read all the books, right, are being rejected. Why would you show the worst part of who you are, your insecurities and fears? Because you’re actually giving that person a chance, the evidence they need to reject you. It’s like confirming your worst fears. And my worst fear is I’m unlovable. So here I’m gonna go to you and say, This is my worst fear. What if your partner says, yeah, this is kind of ugly stuff. It’s too much. I’m not sure what to do. And they back off. I mean, that’s
That’s obliteration, right? Which is counterintuitive. But the good news, and we’ll come back and talk about this after the break, is that when we’re loved in our brokenness, the love is never any stronger than that. Right? So we want the timing to be right when we ask for help. But that’s what we’re trying to give you a clear target on what it looks like. What is the right time for somebody for your partner to earn that vulnerability?
Like they have to be engaged to do that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:22.892)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Just throwing yourself at a brick wall is not gonna work any better than it did yesterday. Okay, let’s let’s come back and talk about this after break and maybe do a role play.
george (13:31.148)
There you go. A good image.
george (13:41.541)
Yeah, we’re hoping to pull up some empathy, right, for these pursuers. I mean, what hurts me is not only in they focus it on their partner all the time,
But they wind up doing to themselves what their partner does, right? They reject these tender parts. They don’t fight for them. They don’t put voice to them. There’s they’re so easy to go away from these tender parts. So the partner goes away from these tender parts and they go away from these tender parts. So you no wonder why the missing ingredient is actually listening to these tender parts and asking for help.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:11.446)
Yeah. Yeah. And the tenderness underneath might be anxiety about being good enough, right? Or about being desirable or about being wanted or being interesting. I I had one couple that
She would like to download her day to her partner. And her partner was like kind of up to here with his own work and his own thoughts. And it was the first time during the day that he had had a chance to, you know, not focus on work, but to kind of think whatever he wanted to think. And that was exactly when his partner wanted to talk about her world. And he was just like, I’m just not that interested.
And then of course that’s her worst fear, right? That she’s not interesting. But between them there was a cycle. You know, he he didn’t know how, as a emotional withdrawal, to take space and to still be available to her. And she didn’t know what to do with this when she was pushing for, you know, somebody to listen to her, and he just seemed bored. so how can we help this couple? Let’s say, you know.
george (15:05.368)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:24.588)
What would we say to them if we s tried to get her to be more vulnerable? We we really are wanting him first to be on board. But I also think, George, that the emotional pursuer has agency that can change the cycle all on their own as well. I mean, I think anybody changing their dance automatically changes the cycle. I don’t think it’s absolutely dependent on, okay, I will do my part if you do your part.
george (15:52.345)
Could agree to disagree. I mean, I agree that you got to focus on what you can control and the pursuer trying to do it differently is super important. But it’s hard to change a cycle, right? If you if the withdrawal pursuer is trying to be vulnerable and the withdrawal keeps disengaging, it’s it’s just a matter of time before you get pulled back into protest, right? But it this is about that pursuer trying to do what they can do differently, right? And I think we should.
I I really hate that we pathologize. Like it’s so normal when you’re rejected for your brain to say, What what’s wrong with me? What could I have done differently to not be rejected? It’s trying to make sense of the pain. And then we use that as evidence, say, look, they’re insecure, they’re not confident about themselves. That’s just what happens. I mean, go back to kindergarten, you get rejected, you don’t get picked for the team. I mean, you start wondering what’s wrong with me. And this is what insecurity is is just a natural thing every human being does.
And we’re really trying to help pursue is like say there’s nothing wrong with insecurities, just information like happiness is or anything else. And the more we can send those clearer signals, the better results we’re gonna have.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:57.87)
So let’s say their partner doesn’t engage and is acting bored and uninterested. what what could they do instead of being vulnerable? Because you’re saying it’s really not time yet to be vulnerable about what you’re needing and what you’re feeling.
george (17:14.05)
I think that’s the healthy part of anger. It’s that assertiveness that says, How are things supposed to change? How can I talk about what’s so important to me if you’re not gonna engage and not gonna listen? I mean, isn’t that an appropriate as assertiveness? Like what could be more important that your partner’s doing? I mean, the timing has to be right, but if you keep asking and your partner keeps saying, No, sorry, I don’t want to talk about this, I don’t want to talk about this. I mean, where does that leave you?
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:36.558)
Yeah.
So I think in in part, that in the book that I was reading, it it leads it leaves us with a need still to be heard and to be listened to. And so we need to get that sort of from a fortress of other people, right? People who will care and listen to us and love us.
george (17:48.344)
Mm-hmm.
george (17:58.286)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:58.519)
I guess it’s it’s a little curious though, like if this is your marital partner, let’s say, somebody you’re committed to for life, and they’re not giving you that, I mean, is it then do you stop the fight? And and it and is stopping the fight different than becoming a burnt out with withdraw pursuer? Is is stopping the fight becoming is ugh I’m sorry. I had no sleep.
george (18:19.396)
Yeah.
Yeah, I I hear you. I is stopping the fight giving up on your needs to be met?
Is it resignation? I mean, that is what we call a burnt-out pursuer. They no longer they don’t see the value in fighting because it only leads to no results. So they start to give up on those needs. And maybe they stay in a relationship, maybe they hope something changes down the road. But that’s to me always a bad sign when the pursuer I I like what you’re saying. I think the solution is still the same, to be heard and have those needs responded to. And how does the pursuer not do to themselves what their partner is doing? How does that pursuer?
stand up and and say, I have a right to this. I’m not being this angry, mean person.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:04.192)
Okay, so let’s let’s say they do that, you know, and their partner just is not yet ready to give to them, is not yet engaged, has not done their own work. I mean, are we saying that they should keep fighting, not not be burnt out, not pull away? I mean, I I kind of think that’s not so smart either. I I in my own life I would say.
george (19:29.07)
You’re you’re in a dilemma, right? You’re in a dilemma. Do I say something that’s gonna lead to the same old fight, or do I say nothing which means my needs don’t get met? I mean, that’s not a great options.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:39.811)
Right. And so let’s say that this is the option. What would we advise this person to do? I I would say that I would say that one of the things I came to in my life was yeah, I needed response and my husband was not yet ready to do that. so
george (19:44.216)
And yeah, this is
george (19:50.104)
You would say in your own life.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:04.746)
I did find a pack of friends who were more responsive. I also kind of threw myself into creativity and production w which became very emotionally satisfying to me. You know, that it it kind of it also I think took the burden off of my husband to provide all the needs for self-esteem and and things that I was struggling with because I I got those needs met differently. So that that helped, you know.
george (20:32.42)
But what we call a pursue of softening, which is the work we’re encouraging, is to pursue a to c send clear signals about what scares them and what they’re really needing and to go for it. And sometimes we do over rely on our partner to meet all our needs. It takes a village. So again, you are a great example of you went to work, you went to friends, you know, people go to church, they go they find these different avenues to find meaning and connection. It takes some of the pressure off, which a lot of times makes it a little bit easier, you know, than to
to get some more of the needs met from your partner in a way.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:06.286)
Mm. Yeah, so you are saying I I just want you to hear what you’re saying is don’t keep doing the same thing when you’re bloody after throwing yourself against the brick wall. Is that right?
george (21:18.35)
Yeah, we wanna
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:18.974)
Is the pursuer softening enough to engage the emotional withdrawal?
george (21:24.462)
No, that’s why change can be hard. If the pursuer is vulnerable but the withdrawal is not re-engaging, then you get that wall impact that you’re talking about. Right, which is why in EFT we tend to go to get the withdrawal to re engage, get them back on a dance floor so they kinda have a chance of knowing what the pursuer is actually looking for.
Right. But again, a lot of pursuers are listening to us now and they’re like, We’ve tried all this, we’ve done all this, and we keep getting the same results. Right. That’s the definition of insanity. So what Laurie’s saying, the move is still the same. If your partner’s not ready for your assertion, for you to send clear signals on what you need, then how do you still fight for those needs and look for it elsewhere as a way of again feeling more grounded and attached and connected?
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:53.358)
That’s right. That’s right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:12.29)
Yeah. And I think that, you know, one of the risks is that looking for it elsewhere, it’s like are we saying, Okay, pushing them into the arms of somebody else who’s more responsive?
george (22:25.402)
Well, the reality is we’re not saying that the research is like when you have insecure attachment and really negative, negative cycles, you’re more at risk. That’s just the reality, right? If same for the withdrawal, if they’re feeling criticized all the time and not connected, they’re more susceptible to someone listening showing some kind of interest. I mean, this it does put the relationship at risk.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:42.548)
Absolutely. Absolutely. But in a relationship that is committed to their partner, you know, it can be some of the needs can be met and shouldered by friends and you know, other other people in your life that are more responsive. Yeah.
george (23:04.364)
It’s there’s really good research on people’s attachment style to God. And if you’re a pursuer and you’re anxious, you tend to see God that is this person who doesn’t want to connect, he’s distant, he’s you know, in this same thing. So that’s a relationship you can work on even if your partner doesn’t. How do you start to see God differently? How do you learn to go to God in softer ways? And you know, we still, it’s the same moves in whatever the relationships look like. It’s just different stakes, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:30.934)
Mm-hmm. God is an attachment figure who is loving and caring and fatherly and and wants to hear your complaints, actually. Right. I don’t know if we have to come to God in a soft way. We can just come as we are, is the theory, I think, which is that sort of unconditional acceptance and love that people feel from when they believe in God.
george (23:56.301)
And how beautiful is that when you feel too much and not worthy of love because people seem to find reasons to go away from you all the time, to go to somewhere with that pain and feel that unconditional love that says, I I see your pain. I don’t want you to be alone in this place.
Right. I know you feel this way and it’s valid, but I do see you as lovable and worthy. And, you know, this place doesn’t scare me. I want to come closer to you. I mean, that is the whole key is the pursuer not being alone in their yuck, right? In their pain and their nasty stuff that comes for them. I mean, that’s what breaks my heart. It’s like pursuers are doing all this work. They don’t get the good stuff, which is the affirmation.
So they try to influence that and they get accused of being too critical and negative, even though they’re overworking. And then they start, you know, feeling they must deserve this rejection because there’s always what’s happens for them. And then they start doing to themselves what everyone else does, which is reject them, leave them alone. I mean, that’s just a hole that keeps getting deeper. Right. And I think the more we help them understand there’s nothing wrong with how they got here and they could get out of here by just trying to send those clear signals. We know it’s hard work.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:54.955)
It is.
george (25:04.376)
Both of us teach this all over the world in our own relationships, struggle doing it. There’s not easy stuff. But when you come up short, we know why we come up short. It’s like I didn’t ask from a softer way. I went back to my anger at protecting myself. You know, and it’s just a reminder to keep aiming for the same target, you know, asking for help in these places of struggle.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:03.106)
Right. It feels a little hopeless when I hear you say, you know, one person can a can’t change the cycle. I probably think you know, making it contingent on the other person, to change is hopeless, you know, because you you can’t I don’t know, you can’t change that way.
I that is not I don’t think how my marriage changed. I mean, I I think it was really I changed first. You know, stop stop being critical, stop and you know, realizing okay, that that push does not get me anywhere. You know.
george (00:49.871)
So we’re giving our listeners a a chance to see how we often process after a podcast and continue some of these conversations. So we hit record to let you into our world. It doesn’t just start and end with the button. There’s usually stuff happening before and afterwards. And you know, so yeah, I mean I hear you. I think I love what you said about focusing on what you can control and for so many pursuers, you know, that is, you know, their own work.
And the hope is, and I’ve seen this happen thousands of times, that to pursue a work individually eventually inspires the withdrawal to do some work.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:27.436)
Yeah, I think I I remember the decision point for me and it was you know, I felt like giving up the push would mean I was just, you know, my needs were not gonna be met, certainly. And it it it kind of felt like I was gonna die. I mean, that’s a little dramatic, but it did it was like, okay. I mean, I’m I was in it for life and I I just thought like, okay, but I knew that pushing forward was killing us. It was killing us. And so it was like, okay, I’m gonna stop pushing. I’m I’m gonna just kinda open up to what truly is here and try to get my needs met in other ways that, you know, I were, you know, mostly girlfriends and you know, in work and I my gosh, I went through all kinds of creative creativity at that point. I like learned to play the piano and I
george (01:56.816)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:24.098)
learned how to paint and all this stuff that was satisfying. You know, so my life became happier even though my marriage really didn’t for a period of time.
george (02:35.333)
Right. And and then something over time enabled Derek to re-engage more, right? Where he had more capacity. And, you know, your marriage got to a better place. And I think a lot of times that is how it looks. It’s the pursuant leads first with a new move. And eventually the withdrawal catches up. You know, but my perspective of you know, all the couples that I work with, that a cycle is co-created. And both people have to have new moves to to replace a negative cycle with a positive cycle. And so yes, I think for a lot of people, pursuers that are trying to change and their partners not willing to try with them, that’s a pretty hopeless feeling. And the most resilient thing they can do is focus on what they can control their own life. And a a lot of times that is that’s the start of it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:21.43)
And you were more the emotional withdrawal in your relationship?
george (03:28.909)
I was, but again, having 9/11 happened and then becoming an EFT therapist and like getting more reps in this area forced me to kind of shift my style, you know, and s I saw the value, the importance of some of these conversations. So even though my impulse would be to pull away, I usually would come back afterwards and be like, All right, you know what? Let’s talk about this. So I I started to re engage. And actually in my marriage that might have been the impetus for us changing s some of the negative cycle. It wasn’t Kathy pushing for it, it was my kind of work on my own that kind of brought so both of us helped our marriage by kind of doing things differently and then our partners kind of responded to that and then before you know it and we still have plenty of negative cycles, but that ability to repair really increased.
