In today’s episode, we are discussing caregiving in families. Different approaches in parenting is a common place couples can experience disconnection and divide.
Join George and Laurie as we invite you to explore what caregiving looks like for you and where those roots developed. Love must exist with limits and sometimes we can be in a tug of war; either being too hard or too soft. Where do you fall in the caregiving system? Can you tap into the emotional needs or do you need to tolerate the discomfort around setting limits?
Listen in to learn more about how our attachment system responds to caregiving needs and how to get on the same page with your parenting partner. Let’s lessen the divide and raise strong families!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:02.035)
Hey, George, blocked caregiving. You we always think about caregiving as empathy and responsiveness. And in adult relationships, that’s true. And maybe we can talk about this, though, because we also are parents and we want to give to our kids. And, you know, the caregiving system always has to be on. But I think there’s two parts to the caregiving system, especially as parents. There’s a structure piece, and I want to talk about that.
George (00:31.352)
Family therapy, let’s do it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:33.415)
Okay.
September 15th, it’s coming. Brave Love, Great Sex. You can buy our book now on Amazon. Thank you so much. It will be delivered to you after September 15th. But that helps us get ahead in the list, the book list.
George (00:53.26)
Yes, send them to your friends. Help us out here.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:56.669)
Yeah, and on social media this week too, actually probably before you listen to this podcast, you can check us out on Brave Love Great Sex on Instagram. And I’m going to be reading some excerpts from the book so you can get a little preview.
George (01:14.37)
Very cool. I think I’m doing Esther Perel’s in sessions too in a couple of weeks. So hopefully we’ll continue to get the word out there. And if our listeners have ideas.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:15.455)
Oh yeah. oh, that’s so fun.
Can you have her pimp the book this time? Or the podcast?
George (01:31.862)
Well, she will be pimping a book for us. I’m not sure exactly when as we get closer to the date, but she’ll she’s one of our endorsers. got a all star list of endorsers and people that have really, you know, believe in this model and believe in the research and believe in what Laurie and I are doing. And it takes a team and we’ve got a great team in place and you’re all part of our team. So thank you for your support.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:35.942)
Okay. Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:41.593)
my gosh, we do.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:49.254)
Absolutely.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:55.155)
Thank you so much. OK, so talk to me about because George is really exploring and rounding out the caregiving system. So talk to me a little bit about it. We’ve talked to our listeners about it. And what are you learning? Tell me. Give me an example.
George (02:14.304)
Yeah, so I mean, in its simplicity, a baby cries, there goes the emotional system needing help. And that primes the caregiving system in a parent to respond to keep the focus on a child to pick that child up and comfort that child. You know, in its simplicity, that’s what we’re all looking for. We’re not that complicated, right? We’re in relationship with kids or with partners, you know, one person’s needing some kind of help and they’re looking for some caregiving to have another nervous system join them in it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:29.818)
Absolutely.
George (02:44.448)
So I think we talk a lot. like the twist that you introduced here, Laurie, because we talk a lot about, know, maybe you have a kid acting out. We do a lot of family therapy and part of the team that wrote the family therapy book. know, there’s so much emphasis on the parents seeing underneath the anger underneath the protective moves, right? So there’s places of pain and fear and shame and help and giving care, giving love and their kids where their kids might not love themselves. Right. But the flip side of that coin caregiving
The care given system is, if you imagine a seesaw, it’s both love and limits, right? On the love side, it’s empathy, nurturing, care, all that beautiful, gushy stuff that we love as EFT therapists. Well, a lot of us don’t recognize the other side is boundaries, structure, discipline, like telling a kid no is sometimes the most healthy thing a kid needs to learn. The world is not chaotic. You can’t always get your way. You need to delay gratification.
You know, in my experience, do a lot of family work. That’s where a lot of parents are coming up short. They want to be their kids’ best friend. They want to kind of love them and have a lot of fun, but saying no is, where the kid actually needs some caregiving.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:56.031)
Yeah, I have a grandchild who’s two, starting to do naughty things. And the other day, we make coffee together in the morning, and he wanted to make a second cup, and so we did. And then he wanted to make a third cup. I’m like, enough coffee. No more. And so he’s crying and trying to climb up the counter. And I had to say no.
partly it just like breaks your heart, right? Cause you want to give something to this precious little thing. And I was talking with his mother about it and just how we both are, you know, he’s so cute at this point. It’s so hard to say no, but you know, it’s like optimal frustration is what I learned that it, helps the child grow up knowing that they’re not the center of the universe, you know, that there is something bigger and it’s, it’s about safety. It’s about just common sense. It’s about
George (04:45.803)
so important.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:51.399)
teaching your children this is the way your family works and you have to set those limits or you have utter chaos and you grew up with kids who are problematic. I tell parents all the time who come in who are young parents with small children and they’re like, you know, but we don’t know what’s going to happen when they’re teenagers. I’m like, yeah, we do. We absolutely do. The science, the attachment theory has already proven to us what happens when kids are teenagers if they grow up.
without empathy and structure. We know how to get kids securely attached and it isn’t just gushy love, it’s also strong limits.
George (05:33.012)
Exactly. And I think our culture has shifted. You know, a lot of us might have grew up in family where there was such a strong emphasis on on limits and boundaries, you know, so there were rules, but a lot of times maybe our parents didn’t say they loved us, so they weren’t too vulnerable or emotional. And, know, I think a lot of us are compensated from that, like we want to enjoy our kids and have closer relationships. So we invest a lot in the emotional part of it, which is great.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:41.981)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:57.994)
Mm-hmm.
George (05:59.074)
But then we lose our balance and, and it is, you’re a hundred percent right. is chaotic when kids have too much influence over the outcome, when everything they can barter and bargain with, like that’s actually really stressful for a kid, right? It’s normal for us to want more ice cream, stay out later, play more video games. And if every time you hear, no, you can, you know, engage in a process where you might be able to get your way. Like every day becomes a fight to get what you want all the time. And like,
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:27.123)
Right?
George (06:28.685)
That is very stressful for a kid.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:31.817)
When I was a young parent, I had some really good people around me that helped me. One was a woman who said she did this theory, parenting with love and logic. And it was essentially what you said. It was parenting with logical consequences, that rather than always being take the phone or put them in the corner or whatever it is, it’s like you kind of let you designed.
their environment and the consequences to fit the issue. you know, it was, I don’t know, it was really, really helpful to me to have somebody to talk it through with all the time. And we would, you know, we would figure it out. Like I would say, I would call her up and say, my kid’s acting out in this way. You know, I don’t know what to do. And together we would sort of like put our heads together and figure out, okay, this is a logical consequence. Like,
George (07:12.748)
Nice.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:28.255)
For instance, when they’re teenagers and their room’s a mess, it’s like, can I take the car to the prom? It’s like, sure, you can take the car to the prom as soon as your room is clean. It’s not, no, you can’t go because your room is a mess. It’s like, yes, you can as soon as this happens so that you rely on their motivation to want to do something to kind of add structure to their life.
George (07:55.05)
It’s a tough job being a parent. I always try to start off. wish the kids were listening to what the parents were doing. I trust the parents have good intentions. Right. But kids are different and what works for one kid doesn’t work for the other kid. I’m always trying to help parents say like, let’s just slow down and just measure your intervention, right? Your kid’s acting out and your kid might need a hug or your kid might need a push. I’m not sure what your kid needs.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:56.876)
Ugh, it is hard.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:07.442)
Right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:21.15)
Right.
George (08:23.275)
But if you try one, our job is to measure, right? You’re going to try to push that kid to clean their room first. Well, maybe your kid was actually in a really bad emotional place. They were feeling ashamed of themselves, not fitting in, you know, and a fight is kind of easier for them to kind of actually, didn’t need discipline. needed a parent to try to talk about their struggle.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:38.974)
Right?
being right.
George (08:43.917)
You know, but then the next day you try to talk to them and actually, actually needed to clean their room. So this is, this is hard work. I’m the last thing I’m here is the judge parents. I know I fail all the time with my kids. I think, do you think I probably are on the side of being too enabling because I do enjoy my kids. I have a lot of fun with that. Right. I want to, you know, make it easy for them. Like, why are you working so hard if I’m going to have to then, but there are plenty of times where.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:48.381)
Hahaha!
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:56.009)
Sure.
George (09:11.009)
You know, you do have to lay down that, that, that rule to create that safety. And I think that word safety is the key of caregiving. You know, what do my kids need to be safe? Did they need love or did they need a push?
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:23.421)
Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, one of the things I’ve seen because I’ve now watched families raise children and I’ve kind of measured the systems as I watched them grow. when we were raising kids, we knew some older people and one of them was heavy handed on discipline. And the other one was heavy handed on permissiveness and whatever goes. Yeah.
George (09:49.077)
And they usually marry together, right? They’re partners. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:52.137)
Yeah, often. So true. But, you know, different families and the heavy-handed kids, like, grew up okay. They all went to college, but they were depressed, like, because there wasn’t enough emotional connection. And the family that was permissive, whatever wild emotion you have, you should be able to express, you know.
And the mother was kind of out of control. And these kids like were drug addicts and like didn’t go to college. I mean, was and the parents were super smart, you know, college careers, the whole bit. But without any boundaries, you know, these kids just went crazy. And so there’s something in the middle that brings security, I think, is what we need to help people with. And I like what you’re saying. It’s you said it’s a hug or a push. It’s a.
George (10:47.627)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:48.209)
Love or a push, right? Right.
George (10:51.297)
And that’s why it’s a privilege to have two parents and usually you’re getting some of both and you know it’s easy to find that sweet spot of what that kid is looking for.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:01.629)
Yeah, and especially if the two parents can get on the same page honoring like, okay, maybe you come from this direction, I come in this direction, but we do kind of have to shuffle it together so that our kids get what they need.
George (11:17.397)
And it’s important that the discipline is delivered with this least reactivity and anger as possible. mean, discipline is supposed to motivate. It’s not supposed to shame. And that’s a really, I’m always trying to get parents to kind of figure out, your kids talk you about their shame? If they’re coming up short, if they’re constantly letting people down, if everybody’s battling with them all the time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:17.791)
Thank
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:24.967)
Yes. Yeah.
George (11:39.534)
You know, that’s not a great space to be. And a lot of kids, they need anger to not feel so bad about themselves. And that’s the trap, right? It’s like they need to feel the strength of anger so they don’t have to feel so bad about themselves. But then the whole world sends them messages that they’re difficult and stressful and that kind of sucks. So they get stuck in this loop. And I think that’ll be fun. Let’s come back and talk about these patterns. That’s the good news, right? I mean, just like couples, family members develop patterns.
feedback loops that if you could identify it, you could start to line this up where you can get people to send clearer signals, kids on what they need so they can get their parents care given either a push or a pull.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:19.399)
Okay. So, George, you were the softer parent. You were more indulgent, you think, even when they were growing up.
George (12:29.762)
Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:31.347)
Really? That surprises me so much.
George (12:32.46)
Yeah.
Well, Cathy, Cathy like structure. She likes labels. She likes, you know, so for her getting the kids on the system, like going to bed and nap time, like all of that is super important. And for me, it’s like, let’s bounce on the bed. Let’s listen to some music, have fun. Like I, I, I liked having a lot of, and I still do have a lot of fun with my kids, but I really appreciate it from her. The importance because my family had eight kids. was a bit chaotic. It was like raised by the wolf. Sometimes my mom’s doing the best she can, but you know, she’s
one person, my father’s gone all the time. So it was, it was more of a chaotic environment. And I learned, you know, to be independent and do my own thing. But, but Cathy really instilled that, that structure to our lives. You know, I’m at the firehouse for 24 hours. She’s got the kids, you know, eating, napping, everything go the best, pretty, organized. So that that’s the discipline part that she was really good at.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:06.687)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:26.057)
Mm-hmm.
But would your kids have talked back to you?
George (13:34.559)
No, I mean, yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:35.583)
I didn’t think so. I didn’t think so. Yeah.
George (13:40.978)
That’s where that my discipline would would kick in just that you know I believe families our job is to protect each other and to love each other not hurt each other and we all Inevitably do hurt each other that’s part, but we’ve learned from that and we have to you know repair I think repair was a big word in our family right it’s so I get when my sons would Not get their way and nobody likes that it would want to yell and you know and there’s some Appropriateness to being able to communicate you don’t want to shut
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:49.821)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:57.488)
Mmm, that’s good.
George (14:10.145)
kids down where they can’t express themselves. But when it crosses a line, expression starts to hurt people and it’s disrespectful, like not putting up a boundary to that is kind of starts to say that’s okay. So yeah, that would be addressed.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:23.409)
Yeah, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:28.381)
Yeah, yeah, I had a few rules, three rules, simple rules. No hurting with your words, no hurting with your body. And you do what I say the first time I say it. And the third one was much harder because getting kids to do things is harder, but that was my goal. you know, no hurting with your words also meant no name calling for you, no teasing, like,
George (14:44.381)
Yeah, wow.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:57.383)
My children were very respectful by the time they were in grade school, you know, and they had the first crush. It was like, that was something we could discuss at dinner. And I knew for sure that the other brother was not going to tease and say, you know, make fun of the person who talked about the first girl they had a crush on or whatever. And somebody said to me, you know how boys are. They wrestle and tussle and get into fights. And I’m like, no, actually, I don’t know that. That is not what happens in my house.
you know, not would have ever happened. And one time we had a kid in therapy because, therapy was a big deal in my household. We all went to therapy. And the family therapist said, you know, your son was describing a fight with his brother over a television show. And she said, one of the things that struck me was that nobody reached for the remote. Nobody tussled. Like one brother did not try to grab the remote.
And I looked at her, like, yeah, like, why would you think that would happen? You know, because that just would have never happened. And it was, I think it was partly this, this part of me that I think I had a really good, strong caregiving part that had good boundaries. You know, when they were young, there was no such thing as hitting, tussling, name calling, slamming doors, all that totally off limits. And I would
have a consequence every time for it. And we didn’t do corporal punishment, although there was like a three month period that we did that my children always remind me of. Yeah, but that time, that summer you did, mom, you spanked us. And I’m like, I know, but other than that, we never did. But there was always a consequence. Like that just was unacceptable to me.
George (16:48.651)
Yeah, I got beat up for my brother for changing the channel. So my house had a lot of fighting, physical fighting and chaos. But, know, listen.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:51.464)
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:56.83)
Yeah.
George (17:00.183)
bringing this stuff up is just inviting parents to try to assess other things they could do a little bit differently. We’re always trying to lead to new moves. I’m not like, there are a lot of kids that are neurodiverse, have challenges that, know, are hard. I mean, there’s so many issues that can complicate this matter. You know, we don’t want to make this sound over easy, but there is a simplicity to just saying, does my kid need love or a push? And, you know, what I…
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:13.063)
Yes, yes, yes.
George (17:26.693)
No one I miss is like if I try anger, I try a push and it doesn’t work. I get more angry and I double down on the same thing. It’s not likely to work. mean, we’re in the business of being more flexible, not rigid. And, you know, parents listening is, you know, just saying, Hey, what, what, what, can we do as a team get on the same page and start seeing these cycles and just like couples, right? It’s if you have a kid who’s acting out, let’s use that example. I just worked with a family today. You know, the kid is
Not having, know, having trouble at school, not listening to his parents, disrespectful comes home, just wants to go to his room. You know, that’s frustrating for parents. Like you want to motivate your kid to engage and to fit in. And so, you know, the parents starts giving more advice, which lands to the kid is criticism. The kid doesn’t want to hear the criticism. So uses anger to push away to criticism and uses anger to try to go into their own space, which makes the parent feel more like they’re failing. So they come back with more criticism and it’s like,
You can see the same pattern, right? Criticism leads to withdrawal, more anger, which leads to more criticism and both the parent is feeling like a failure and the kid is feeling like a failure and like, can’t get it right. Like it’s, so that’s a pretty typical pattern that we’re going to say.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:37.705)
Yeah, exactly. And it’s a pursuit withdrawal cycle in a different realm, right? It’s the parents trying to push, trying to oftentimes with really good motives, they want to figure out what’s going on with their kid. My kid going to their room doesn’t make any sense or my kid staying on the computer for hours and hours and hours playing games. It’s like, what’s wrong with them? They’re not engaging socially. So they start to push, they start to control.
And maybe it is time to talk about it, but maybe it is time to set limits and say, you know what? You know, you got to go outside for two hours to earn one hour on the computer. You know, you got to have a limit.
George (19:20.065)
Yeah. Well, it’s good to see that patterns, we can change our positions in patterns, right? So with my wife, I might withdraw more often, but with my kids, you’re right, a lot of times parents get in the pursuer role as a parent. They want to get their kids to engage. They’re so invested in shaping and raising this kid that they’re often in that place.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:35.729)
yeah. yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:44.019)
Yeah, exactly.
George (19:45.016)
But I like what you’re saying, like say, you know, say what happens to a lot of parents is when they, when trying to get your kid to do something always leads to a fight. You start walking on eggshells and you don’t want to fight. So you wind up, you don’t want to say anything. I don’t want to, you know, all right, 10 more minutes on a computer is fine. Like, you know, it’s not worth the battle before bed and like all of these kind of given in to avoid conflict in the short term.
Empowers that kid to feel like they have more power, more power, and then everything becomes a fight. Right. And, and that kid learns that it’s okay then to cross lines and throw a temper tantrum when they don’t get their way. So that’s the limits piece that Laurie’s emphasized. Like how do you tolerate saying no to your kid and prepare yourself for the temper tantrum, but to recognize this is actually what my child needs to feel safer in the world.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:15.795)
Right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:36.051)
Exactly. I I remember the summer we said no screens. You know, I mean, my kids just moped around and were angry and naughty and depressed and, you know, for like four days. And then after that, they found other things to do. And we had the best summer of our life. You know, we we played outside, we went to parks, you know, we we
did stuff as a family, because I think sometimes, especially one of my wars is about kids on screens, and it just numbs their little minds. It becomes so engaging that the rest of the world kind of fades back, and they’re missing these childhood memories that were so important, chasing the ice cream truck, or hide and seek at night, or just going as a family.
you know, going to church or going to breakfast or wherever you go, you know, it’s like a big fight. And I think it changes their behavior.
George (21:42.574)
Yeah.
Well, it’s a temporary fix, right? If you’re exhausted as a parent, you just want a little 20 minute break and you hand the iPad and a phone over and it gives you that break. But I think there’s something to be said about, you know, I can see it myself. And the more you scroll, watch things, the more your brain wants it. like it’s, it is, there’s definitely an addictive component. mean, and that’s why being a parent is so hard. There’s so many elements, you know, this world is fast paced. There’s more stress, there’s more addiction. I mean,
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:48.383)
you
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:01.887)
It’s addictive. It’s addictive. Yeah.
George (22:13.372)
It’s a hard job, you know, and most parents I work with really are trying the best they can.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:19.997)
Yeah, I know. what I would love is for people to get onto the same page together. Like, you’re not a bad parent because you’re permissive. You’re not a bad parent because you’re strict. It’s like, we both come from different family systems. I too came from an extremely chaotic family system. that was partly in my… I went the other direction, George. was like, that’s not going to happen. That chaos and the hitting and the fighting and all that, that’s not going to happen in my family.
George (22:33.463)
both have good intentions.
George (22:42.764)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:48.991)
I was very intentional about it. But I was also the primary caretaker. You like you were off working. I was the primary caretaker. So I had to instill structure, you know, like Cathy did, I guess.
George (23:02.957)
Yeah. Well, that’s our invitation to all you listeners is just to say, where do you fall in the caregiving department? Are you flexible where you can give that your kid a hug and have a difficult conversation and support them maybe in their fears and shame? And can you tolerate the discomfort of saying, no, no phone today? You do you need this boundary, this structure to kind of, you know, for the world to be a more orderly safe place? And I think
All of us can make improvements, but you you only can make improvements when you become more intentional, when you start to kind of come up with goals and objectives you want to work with as a parent.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:42.525)
Yeah, I think it’s pretty easy to see in your own family when it’s not working, right? When there’s more stress at home, that’s your signal that says, OK, we need to readjust here our caretaking. Is it that we need more empathy and being able to talk to our kids? Which, yeah, I think people in our generation didn’t get a lot of that from their parents. So they’re kind of challenged by that. I don’t know how to talk. I don’t know how to bring it up.
you know, discipline may feel really normal for them. But on the other hand, I think in this next generation that I see raising children, you know, they lean more toward permissiveness and that doesn’t raise strong kids, right?
George (24:30.879)
And it’s, the target keeps moving, Developmentally, kids change. And sometimes, some parts of their life, they need more nurturing, and others, they need more structure. And that’s why it’s, a parent needs to be flexible, and different kids need different things at the same time. mean, it’s such a hard job, but it’s also the most amazing job, right? You get to be that person who kind of teaches this child’s nervous system, the world’s a safe place, and that love really matters.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:58.153)
Yep. Thanks for listening. Be brave.
George (25:03.222)
and raise strong families. I didn’t feel like the great sex.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:05.534)
and keep it hot.
