Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode Laurie and George delve into the withdrawer’s world and how their mission to get it right is so wrong. Inspired by a recent post from podcaster Steven Bartlett, they discuss the unrealistic expectations and pressure many withdrawers impose and the vicious avoidance cycle they get caught in when they can’t meet those expectations.
If you identify as a withdrawer in your negative cycle or you want more insight on your withdrawing partner this episode will teach you: what is happening and steps to take to break this habit.
You’ll learn how to set realistic expectations, reduce pressure and communicate clearly with your partner. It takes less than 10 minutes a day to create a better relationship! Take a page from our role play and address this in your relationship for a more secure connection.
Our book Brave Love, Great Sex is now available for pre-order on Amazon. Secure your copy today!
Support this episode’s sponsor (and help the pod!):
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s long-time favorite personal lubricant! Use the code BraveLove for a discount!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:01.412)
George, I am so excited about a post that I saw by Steven Bartlett. He’s a huge podcaster.
And we need to be on his podcast. But, you know, he was talking about sort of how to manage the withdraw part of himself. And I love it. I love what he said. We got to talk about this.
George (00:40.482)
Let’s do it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:42.498)
Okay. And our book, our book is coming out. We are like in progress right now, right? We’re starting publication and all of that.
George (00:49.56)
That’s it.
George (00:53.528)
We need some pre-orders. Get that book hot and ready all primed up, baby.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:55.778)
Yeah, that’s right. Brave Love Great Sex by Laurie Watson and George Fowler. So we are on Amazon. So we would love for you to buy the book now because that hits us at release time. You can buy it right now and that would help us a great deal to kind of have a big build before September, which is our official release date. But we’re starting to…
George (01:20.814)
We’re not too prideful to beg, beg, beg, beg. Let’s go people. is where we need help.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:25.806)
We’re getting endorsements now and we’re starting. I gotta go get my portrait done. I hate doing all that kind of stuff. I have to take a whole day, George, to do it. Like makeup, hair, the whole shebang, you know. You already have it done. You have a wife who’s a photographer. That’s why it’s good enough. It does help a little. Yes. Yes. Okay.
George (01:39.662)
would come out at opposite extremes. I found it all. I said it’s good enough. That’s
That does help. That does help.
But still a lot of takes to get the right picture, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:55.46)
Yeah, and I bet that drives you crazy, doesn’t it? But it’s it’s essentially free and and you have somebody who you can smile at pretty because you love her and it shows. So good. you. OK, let’s talk about what Stephen Bartlett says, because I think it’s so important. It was his post, I think, today, which is what is the date today, George, March 25th. So if you all want to find him, Stephen Bartlett.
He has a lot of smart things to say. basically, he talks about ADHD and things like that. But when you read his posts, if you listen to us, you know that he’s really talking about a withdrawal position. And he says, you know, I was torturing myself over not giving Melanie, his wife, two hours of quality time nightly while traveling six countries. After an honest conversation, she said, I just love knowing you’re thinking about me, even when you’re not here.
Like her expectations were so much lower, but I think this is what happens when you’re a withdraw. You build up in your head. It’s never going to be enough. It needs to be this great big thing. And then he decided, you know, I’m going to calculate inside what the enough is for me. Like, what can I give? So he all on his own as a withdraw, he figures out what can I give? And he starts to do that.
George (03:20.526)
nice. Well, we know most which were their safety is based on performance, right? That this is if I can make everyone happy and I get the results in a world that I’m doing a good job, then I feel safe and powerful and can engage and obviously the flip side of that is sensitivity to message it disappointing people are failing that coming up short, you know, and that is, I do like it’s more of a practical post.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:26.67)
Yes, yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:36.644)
Right.
George (03:47.982)
We talk a lot about these deeper emotions, but we have a logical brain for a reason too. Sometimes our expectations, there’s just bad math, right? There’s not enough hours in a day to perform for everybody the way we’re hoping to perform. And then once we start to come up short, then it’s like, all right, well, this is why I want to just retreat. And it’s a vicious cycle.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:09.828)
Right. I mean, this, what I liked about it is he kind of talked himself out of that performance, you know, the huge performance for everybody. And he said to himself, what do I think would be enough? Like, what is that real minimum attention that people need to feel valued? And he listened to his wife in this case, and Melanie is like, it’s a five minute daily phone call.
plus scattered proof of thought moments, which I thought was so smart. Proof of thought, because so many pursuers, right, we just want to know that we’re in the mind of our withdrawal rate. And how do you do that? I mean, I don’t know how he did it, but I can imagine a text here or there or, you know, a random phone call or something that says, just thinking of you or just random. You know, it’s like that is so deeply reassuring. I’m on your mind. I’m with you.
And so to him, it’s like, you know, how much time does this take? Eight minutes a day while he’s traveling?
George (05:07.681)
it.
George (05:14.285)
Well, he’s doing two things that are really important. He’s thinking about her, but he’s also sharing himself. He’s sharing a struggle that he has, which is saying, don’t have the time to do all that I want to be able to do. And that makes me feel bad about myself. So she’s saying, wow, he’s thinking about me because I’m a priority. I’m on his radar screen. And he’s also letting me into himself and who he is. That’s incredibly intimate.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:21.284)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:28.421)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:40.452)
Yeah. Yeah, it deeply intimate. And then he says, you know, I’m going to go to the gym 30 minutes a day, four days a week, not seven. You know, whenever, right. I started to think, OK, it’s spring, got to get in shape and oftentimes set these expectations of, you know, performance for myself. Like, OK, every day I’m going to do this and I’m going to only eat this and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, how about four days a week?
You know, so he’s lowering that self-imposed performance kind of standard as well. And then he says to his mother, one proper call each week would be plenty. One proper call. I think he’s English. Yeah, I think he’s English.
George (06:18.893)
one proper call. Is he English? Yeah, there you go. We have so much to learn from each other. actually take Lori in my life. I’ve done a pretty good job of this. You know, I used to have much…
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:30.982)
Hmm.
George (06:34.261)
more pressure on my performance where I started to strive for good enough. mean, it really is. You’re doing the best job you can. And if you’re in the present moment, that’s really all you could do. And it is to low expectations to say, listen, if I want to do my best all the time, I’m constantly coming up short. And what he’s also saying is most people don’t want your best. They just want you. And I think that’s that’s super important.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:36.944)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:45.85)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:54.298)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:59.973)
Yeah.
Right. And I think for him, the result of sort of lowering the imagined standard, he says, I have less guilt, more presence, and I’m actually better at everything. You know, I think that is I think what is so lovely to me as a pursuing partner is.
He also thought about this. He came forward of his own volition. It isn’t just harangued into responding. He’s like, OK, I have this thing that I’m always making her unhappy. What can I do? What is within my power? That, to me, is big.
George (07:46.85)
And that’s what we’re trying to get people to do in therapy, right? What we call withdraw re-engagement. Not just to perform better, try harder. They do that all the time. It’s about seeing that they want something to be different for themselves. That the way he set up his life with all this pressure means every day is about pushing his ball up that hill and grinding.
You know, we all have to grind, it is more rewarding in life where we can just take these moments to kind of appreciate and be thankful for what it is that we do have and to enjoy that. mean, worry takes us into the future or into the past of guilt. I like what he called it, the guilt gap, right? Between what he’s expected and what he’s able to deliver. it just leaves you in a chronic state of guilt all the time and letting people down.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:32.335)
That is so true.
George (08:32.577)
You know, and as he starts to let go of the past or the future, he can be more present. mean, the most successful people spend more of their time in a present moment. And that really is the target we’re aiming for. And I love to see him and have more success doing that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:45.784)
Absolutely. Absolutely. The guilt gap. I, even though, well, I don’t know, pursuers, trust me, I got a lot of guilt. You know, it’s, I’m never good enough anywhere I am. At work, there’s just so much going on with my family. There’s so much going on. Always, always with my clients.
George (09:05.873)
That’s why we don’t want to limit this to just withdrawers. mean, I think this realistic expectations is something all of us can kind of readjust a little bit.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:15.91)
And you know, I’m mostly a pursuer, right? But when the guilt gets high enough, I too can avoid and withdraw. I’m an overwhelm. I just can’t do one more thing. so rather than necessarily doing a little or communicating effectively, I shrink back because I can’t take any more. So I think.
We all know that pursuers and withdrawers change positions in different relationships. In our significant relationship, tends to be more where we come from from childhood. But we all know what it’s like to be on the other side of that.
George (10:00.587)
I really like that he’s also focusing on what he can control. Right. He’s taken ownership for his own actions. So often because in a negative cycle, we could put it on the other person. Well, you’re too critical. You’re too angry. It’s all about you. That’s why I’m going away. Like we blame the other person for what we’re doing and he’s taken ownership for his part. Certainly there’s a relationship dynamics, right? If she doesn’t respond to him and just becomes critical and says, well, two minutes, not enough. And this is the problem. He’s not going to have success, but that he’s focusing on what he
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:12.496)
You’re too demanding.
George (10:30.571)
control, I can do a better job as this person, you know, just having realistic expectations and following through instead of just avoiding and disengaging all the time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:42.436)
Right, exactly. And he listens to her, right? She’s like, I just love knowing you’re thinking about me, even when you’re not here. He’s like guilty that he’s not there, guilty that he’s not calling with two hours of quality time. I can you imagine traveling and having to call your partner for two hours? But that’s his own internal standard. That wasn’t her demand. wasn’t. But that’s what he thinks she wants.
And I think that that’s you, what?
George (11:12.245)
I’m laughing. I’m laughing as I was just at the psychotherapy network and it is absolutely bazonkers the amount of just nonstop things you’re doing the whole time. And usually Kathy comes with me on on trips and this is the one I every year I tell her, you’re not coming. And I’m not really available for the next four days. If I can get like a quick 30 second, you know, call and I will but it is just so yes, I can totally relate to what he’s saying. Having that
having that conversation beforehand with his partner, it does set those expectations in more realistic way.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:46.232)
Yeah, exactly. Trying to, I think, explain before you get there that this is what I’m up against. But that’s sharing yourself, right? That’s still coming forward as maybe a more traditional withdraw and you’ve said, you know, you’re not so much anymore. I get it. That would be so comforting to know, okay, this is why I’m, you know, he’s going incognito for four days.
George (12:15.117)
Exactly. And this is where the work of Edtronic and good enough parenting is so helpful. We just really need good enough consistently to create secure attachment. And we don’t have to be perfect in relationships. There’s so much room. And he’s also demonstrating an ability to repair. He’s coming back and he’s kind letting her into his struggle so he can get a bit of help with it, which is really beautiful. I think, Laurie, we should come back for a break and do some role plays with this.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:39.919)
Yeah.
Okay, let’s come back.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:54.53)
Okay, so good enough. Good enough parenting actually is an old person Winnicott’s theory. You were thinking about Tronic. What were you thinking about him? He’s the still face guy.
George (12:59.105)
Yep. Yep.
George (13:06.463)
he’s the still face and he put some, you know, percentage around parents just need to get it right a third at a time for kids to develop secure attachment, right? So that that’s all of us. We don’t have to be perfect. We’re going to miss signals. We’re going to do all these things that lead to disconnection, but that ability to kind of be good enough and respond. So that’s that’s what this guy’s saying. I can I can do good enough. I can’t do two hours a day and then work out two hours a day. Then all these things that there’s just not enough hours in a day.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:15.792)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:36.454)
Right, right. He says 30 % of the time, which is such good news if you’re a parent, of being attentive to your kids helps your child develop secure attachment. And can we imagine maybe, you know, 30 % of the time, I think though, don’t the Gottman say it’s 70 % of the time we have to respond to our partner’s bids? I think they do. I do. Different numbers.
George (13:37.471)
So.
George (13:58.67)
again, different numbers I extrapolate
Good enough. It’s responding to bids a lot of times that 30 % parents are responding but not the exact way the kid needs. Right. So that’s where that response number might be higher, but maybe a kid needs a hug and the parent gives advice. I mean, that’s miss attuned. That’s not what the kids looking for, but it would still be a response. But I think that, you know, that’s what I see in my couples too. It just needs to be good enough. A lot of times our bids are off how we respond is off. But if you can’t repair
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:11.078)
Thank you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:14.958)
I’m
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:25.572)
One, two.
George (14:30.859)
Those numbers drastically drop.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:33.326)
Yeah, but I think what I want to slow down here for a minute because I think what you’re saying is important. We’re talking about being good enough as the standard. I think for all of us, we can tend to think in the withdrawing part of us, like I have to be perfect. I have to meet all their needs and I can’t. So I get overwhelmed. When I’m overwhelmed, I pull back further. I don’t do anything or I don’t do much.
And so if we can internally think about, know, it’s okay. You don’t have to be perfect. You just have to be good enough as parents, as partners. You know, it reduces anxiety. think anxiety is one of the barriers that we come against in relationship. It’s not going to be enough.
George (15:08.514)
Yeah.
George (15:20.573)
Exactly. Most withdrawals don’t recognize that when they go away to self soothe the kind of fear of guilt and all that crap that they feel when they get messages that not doing it right. They are not engaged. If you’re not engaged, you can’t attune to what your partner is needing, right? This is and it just leads to more failures, more resentment, more frustration. And this thing takes on a life of its own. So, you know, it’s not just in the moment where they get something wrong that’s bad. It’s to cope with that.
They have to go away, which you’re going to miss another five to 10 bids when you go away. And those are the ones that really insidiously, you know, mount up pile on. Well, let’s play with it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:58.576)
Yeah, exactly. My anxiety makes my… Okay, let’s do some role play here.
George (16:04.735)
If I was, maybe where I’ll try to have a conversation around what he’s doing, lowering expectations, but I want you not to be open to it, right? And you just pile on and again, we’ll see if, I mean, two things have to happen here.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:17.754)
Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:21.35)
Okay, so we’re gonna do it the way where people get miss attuned and then hopefully we’ll do it the way where they stay attuned. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
George (16:28.171)
Yeah. Back to Joey and Maria. We haven’t talked about them in a while. All right. So Maria, was really hoping to, you know, have a quick conversation with you around just the pressures that I feel to kind of get things right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:48.26)
Okay.
George (16:50.123)
Well, you know, I know I’m working a lot and I’m not around enough for the kids and my boss says I’m not doing enough. And, you think I’m not around enough. And, you know, I just can’t I don’t have enough hours in a day to make everyone around me happy.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:57.092)
That’s for sure. That is for sure.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:08.646)
You have the same hours in the day that everybody has.
George (17:13.003)
Right. But I’m trying to be more kind of strategic with those hours. Like I’m trying to say, Hey, maybe I don’t have to, you know, spend two hours at the end of the night where me you watch a movie all the time or, you know, get a chance to talk that if it was really just more focused, like, you know, if we both was super engaged for 10 minutes, like, would it not give us what we’re looking for?
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:33.402)
Well, I think you’re the one who wants to watch the movie because you don’t have to talk to me then.
George (17:39.711)
I do want to talk to you, I’m just exhausted.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:42.852)
Yeah, you’re always exhausted because you give it all away at work.
George (17:47.167)
And this is why this is the message you keep giving me that I’m failing coming up short. And I’m trying to do something with that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:53.87)
You know, I don’t really ask for that much. And it’s like, but you come home, you’re preoccupied. Even when you’re listening to me, you’re preoccupied.
George (18:02.829)
You feel like you’re listening to me now? I mean, I feel like it’s the same message that you’re saying, I’m doing it wrong.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:11.074)
Yeah, well, I mean, I don’t really understand what you’re asking for here. It’s like you’re saying you’re overwhelmed, which you always say, that you don’t have much time for me. You know, I just I don’t get how this is any different than what we always talk about. You don’t you don’t have enough time for me.
George (18:11.531)
So.
George (18:23.713)
Yeah, yeah. Right, you’re right. I’m going to try harder.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:30.594)
Okay, great. That was good. Wasn’t that good? Haven’t we heard that thousands of times in our office? Yeah, for sure. For sure. Everybody out there is like, I’m tense just listening to them. Yeah. If it goes like that in your home, right? If it goes like that in your home, these are two people who are caught in their cycle, right? The one person is
George (18:38.804)
and done it in our relationships, right?
George (18:48.959)
breaking it.
George (18:55.265)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:57.91)
He’s got it in his mind that he’s going to come forward and share something special and a new way of being. And it doesn’t go very well.
George (19:08.149)
This is where I really love the hats, Lori. It’s, know, the red hat, the emotional system. That’s the person sharing and looking for their partners, caregiving and the blue hat. But what so happens, right? I’m trying to share. You never get a chance to talk about your stuff. Like, so this is your opportunity to be like, are you seriously like, what about me? This is you’re talking about lowering things. We’re already not good enough as it is. So when you have both people protesting or trying to share their needs at the same time, neither one of them gets caregiving and it’s just a win for the negative side.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:29.306)
Right, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:37.802)
Exactly. So we want to separate this conversation. And maybe that’s what it is. I’d just like you to listen to me. I have something that I need to say, like prep her for listening to put her red hat, blue hat on the listening hat on while you share.
George (19:48.588)
Yeah.
George (19:53.622)
Yeah. Right. And that’s important for our listeners. Like if you’re the person listening, you got to put yourself in a space where it really isn’t about your feelings in that moment. You’re trying to understand and walk in your partner’s shoes. You’re going to get your chance. What you’re feeling is absolutely important, but you can’t do both at the same time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:12.59)
And maybe that’s what you offer her, right? It’s like, I want to talk for a little bit, have you hear me out. And then I want to listen to you for a while and hear you out so that she knows her time is coming. OK, go again. Take two.
George (20:23.287)
Well, let’s do it.
Yep. All right, take two. So Marie, I’m really hoping we can have a couple minutes where I can share something with you and it would really help me if you could, I know it brings up a lot for you and I promise we can talk about that afterwards, but I really, I just want you to kind of feel what I’m feeling, because I normally don’t talk about these things.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:52.652)
Okay, I would love to know feelings from you for sure.
George (20:56.811)
Well, I know and it’s, and I wanna do that. I’m trying to figure out what gets in the way, guess. You know, I’m starting to be more aware of the pressure that I constantly feel.
that I wanna make you happy and I wanna make the kids happy and I wanna do a good job and I do put a ton of pressure on myself and I’m starting to recognize like I over promise and under the liver, right? I wanna make people happy so like I kinda, yeah, I’ll do that and I’ll do that and I tell everyone yes, yes, yes and then like.
I just, I find it like I’m coming up short and then I don’t know what to do with that. So I just like pull into my own world and then I’m like checking out and I don’t like the way that feels.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:40.902)
Hmm. Yeah, I hear you. It sounds like you’re figuring out what you do kind of to contribute to this internal feeling of being pressured and feeling like you’re failing, which is what you say a lot. And, you know, I’m hearing you, you’re trying to figure this out for you. Is that right?
George (22:02.827)
Yeah, exactly. I’m trying to take ownership from what I can control. I want to stop over promising. I want to be more realistic in my expectations. I, I think.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:10.534)
Mm-hmm.
George (22:15.915)
You know, it really is just about being present when I’m with you all and not being distracted and not thinking about all the other things I’m not doing when the people I’m with. like, you know, yeah, maybe I can’t have an hour at the end of the day. But if I had 15 minutes where me and you really kind of locked in with each other and, know, there were no phones and distractions, I just think like I feel bad for what it does to you. And I when I’m trying to give you the time you’re asking for, but I’m not really present when I’m there because I’m worried about everything else.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:25.862)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:44.3)
Mm-hmm. I hear you. You have so many distracting issues in your life, and you kind of tell yourself, we need to have a whole hour of no distraction and time together. And now you’re thinking, what if I could just be there for 15 minutes, but actually be present? That’s what you’re kind of saying inside.
George (23:09.099)
Yeah, I just think I wouldn’t have to feel so bad in that hour that I’m not doing it right. And I’m really not super present because I’m thinking about, now I’m doing this, I’m not going to be able to do that. I’m going to fall behind here. And like, it’s like a rat race in my brain. And, you know, I just want to be more realistic. Like, you’re not asking much. Like, this is what we usually did when we were together and we met each other. It wasn’t hard to be present. Like, whatever we were doing, taking a walk, it was just like, you know,
I just wanna tap into that again.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:41.062)
I would love that. I mean, I would love to like 15 minutes after dinner, buddy. That would be, you know, like let’s leave our phones at home and just talk for 15 minutes while we walk together. That would make me so happy. And I appreciate that you’re working on this, thinking about this, you know, trying to, it sounds to me like you’re trying to discern.
your own pressures from our cycle and the pressure you think I put on you and trying to kind of come up with something that would, that you could commit to so that you’re not, because I don’t think I’ve asked you for an hour every single night, but.
George (24:21.549)
I mean, I just want to do a good job, but I appreciate your openness to this. And this is really about me. This is really about me wanting to kind of do me a bit differently because I kind of think I set myself up to come up short. And I’ve been blaming you a lot for that when you’re frustrated. But like there are things I think I can control that would would reduce my own pressure.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:29.636)
Thank
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:45.796)
Yeah, okay. I love that. Yep. Good.
George (24:52.033)
Can we have time to fool around now?
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:53.766)
No, now.
George (24:56.065)
Whoo, I got rid of that talk, that emotional talk. All right, get that off the table.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:00.038)
But now you got to ask her, right? Like, okay, what’s on your mind? You know, because you’re in the emotional cycle right now. If you switch to the sexual cycle, she’s going to feel like, oops, I know it was, I know it was.
George (25:13.377)
Yeah, I was a joke. was a A lot of a lot of us with drawers need to joke to kind of diffuse some of the stress, but it is important, right? Well, when you move too quickly to another mission without a transition, just like if, if Maria jumps right into Well, let me share now what’s going on. A lot of times we don’t have time to adjust our brains to what really we’re talking about. So very good point.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:19.199)
I know, I know, but I’m pointing it out for everybody else out there, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:32.996)
Right, right, right, right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:37.412)
But since we are a sex podcast, I do want to say, you know, like getting it off your chest, connecting emotionally, feeling heard is an aphrodisiac even for a sexual pursuer, right? It like gives them the sense of connection and warmth and makes them want to be sexual. That’s very natural.
George (25:59.448)
That’s probably why I said it. There’s something about intimacy that makes your body feel safe. And when it’s safe, does what it bodies want to do, which is come closer. But it could be very bad timing for a partner who’s not ready for that, doesn’t see it come and doesn’t get a chance because you know, still Maria’s needs have not been met, right? It feels nice. She hasn’t been heard yet, and it might be too quick to move into that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:00.973)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:08.153)
Yeah, exactly. Could be very bad. Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:20.333)
Yep, she hasn’t been heard yet. She hasn’t been heard yet. So.
Yeah, exactly. We just, I get it, but I’m a sexual pursuer. So I understand how emotional connection does work. You know, it’s not right. Sexual pursuers are not just about the body. They’re also about the heart as well, oftentimes. So, okay. Well, thank you all for listening to us. We want you to be, be brave out there and vulnerable with your emotional self.
George (26:51.351)
Keep it hot, baby.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:52.869)
Have some great sex.
