Can sex ever be “owed” in a relationship? On today’s episode of Brave Love, Laurie and George explore how expectations sabotage intimacy – and how to communicate desire in a way that invites connection, not resistance. Includes a step-by-step role play you can try today. Join us on socials under our new name @BraveLoveGreatSex.

Support this episode’s sponsor (and support the pod!):

WE-VIBE.COM and use code BRAVELOVE for 20% off!

Transcript

George (00:10.71)
Sex on demand. I work hard all day. I come home. You owe me a little.

Laurie Watson, PhD (00:17.0)
That’s my answer. So you are listening to Brave Love Great Sex. We have changed our name. We are so happy and we are about to publish our book. It will come out in the fall of 2026, Brave Love Great Sex. But it’s the same old me and George. And we’re going to talk about relationship and sex.

George (00:18.574)
What do you think, Laurie?

George (00:38.52)
Same old.

Well, let’s talk about the title though. I mean, why we changed it. think brave love, great sex is trying to capture the dynamics of the attachment, connection and bond, right? That it consists of emotional and sexual and physical connection. That’s all the ways into making this beautiful bond. So, you know,

Laurie Watson, PhD (00:44.912)
Yeah, okay.

Laurie Watson, PhD (00:53.892)
Exactly.

Laurie Watson, PhD (01:03.056)
Right. And it talks about that, I think the necessary component, right, the courage that we have to have in order to have the bond that we want, where we have to expose our vulnerability, ask for what we need. that is kind of missing in just the advice that’s out there. And so we wanted, we also thought that foreplay perhaps was a title that sounded a bit more salacious and we’re

George (01:08.652)
Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (01:31.49)
offering deep psychological insight, experience from our practices and our lives, and from two different viewpoints, right? The emotional cycle and the sexual cycle. So we wanted our name to incorporate more of who we were.

George (01:47.109)
Yeah. And floor, floor play was too limited, right? It was focusing just on the sexual piece and so much of what we’re talking about happens outside the bedroom, right? And being able to brave love really captures it all, right? What you do inside and outside the bedroom. But the target too, just explicitly is we want to talk about sex because so many people are not talking about sex. So it really feels like a much broader name now that really captures what we’re doing in a true way.

Laurie Watson, PhD (01:52.166)
Right, right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (01:59.908)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (02:08.837)
Exactly.

Laurie Watson, PhD (02:15.842)
Exactly. So just hang with us. It’s still us and thanks for being with us. So let’s please spread the word. Now they can keep us on their social media. I had girlfriends who’s like, I don’t really want to put four play on my social media and show that I’m following you. I’m like, really? But they didn’t. And so now maybe with brave love, great sex, people will feel a little braver. Don’t you hope?

George (02:22.644)
Spread the word, please. Let people know.

George (02:36.718)
Brave love.

George (02:40.896)
If you’re scared of the great sex, just do Brave Love. People still find this. I always had a, at a fundraising event and a lot of people were asking me, you know, the book and it’s like Brave Love, like great, great sex. Like, it’s still, you know, we live in a society that’s so awkward around talking about sex. It’s amazing.

Laurie Watson, PhD (02:43.848)
People will still find us exactly.

Laurie Watson, PhD (02:57.978)
you

So true, so true. this is, I mean, I do have so many people who say we take the awkward out of talking about sex, right? It makes it natural and normal. And we have couples write in and say, you know, we changed their lives, their marriages, because we helped them be able to talk to their partner about sex. And that touches me. If that’s happening for you and you write us, that really encourages me to keep going and do this work.

George (03:32.576)
And the goal, hopefully people are having great sex, but that’s not also what we mean by the title. mean, just being able to talk about it, recognize its importance, be able to communicate. There are some people having the most vulnerable conversations through, even if they can’t have great sex, there’s still just a beautiful area to be more intentional about.

Laurie Watson, PhD (03:36.464)
Absolutely.

Laurie Watson, PhD (03:53.03)
Yeah. And so let’s talk about this idea of when we’re in a partnership and maybe one person just feels like, look, I’m doing my part. I’m hauling effort over here and in maybe the emotional or the practical realm of the relationship. And I don’t see you pulling your weight in the sexual realm. And I kind of feel like you owe me that.

George (04:19.242)
Let’s try to connect to why people might feel that way before both of us have our gut reactions. Like, you know, it’s not too sexy and probably going to put a lot of pressure on the other person. But, you know, I do think in a committed relationship that if you’re choosing to go nowhere else with your sexual needs, but with your partner and you’re really looking forward to it and your partner doesn’t make it a

Laurie Watson, PhD (04:22.568)
Sure. Sure.

Laurie Watson, PhD (04:29.456)
Right.

George (04:45.486)
priority or doesn’t seem to be excited or isn’t so intentional about it. You know, it creates an imbalance where you get in a put it in a position where I got to keep asking, I got to keep asking, I got to keep asking. You know, and I think just like we know what pursuers in general, there is something in a protest that feels powerful, that feels like, know, I have a right to this. You know, maybe I say it in a clumsy way, but you know what, hey, we made a deal here and I’m doing my end of the deal and you’re not doing your end of the

Laurie Watson, PhD (05:11.142)
We made a deal.

Right. And how many people have we listened to, George, who say, look, it feels like bait and switch. My partner was very sexual before marriage and then suddenly, and before kids. And afterwards, after I committed to monogamy and committed to them, they seem to have receded from that bargain. they’re not putting any effort in and they don’t seem to want it. And just the frustration of how do we get through to that partner?

George (05:25.483)
of four kids.

Laurie Watson, PhD (05:44.514)
who’s like not so interested. I really get that. mean, I’m a sexual pursuer, so I understand the longing, the feelings, the frustration, the sense of entitlement. look at, you know, I waited for this. This is really important to me. Yeah, very frustrating.

George (06:02.605)
Right. And do we explore that the other way? You know, a partner that does expect to be provided for, that the bills are paid, you know, do we call that entitlement? You know, I’m entitled to a vacation. I work really hard, you know, I think it’s just a judgment a lot of us have, you know, because it’s in the sexual realm.

You know, and listen, we all have the rights to what we’re doing with our own bodies. So this is, complicated, but we’re just trying to start off with, know, can we get curious and give care given to the part of somebody that comes across in a crude way? And you know, how did you describe it, Laurie? It’s like, demanding sex, right? I, it’s quid pro quo. Like we’re gonna, I’ve done my parts, you know, this is funny video. It’s not too funny, you know,

Laurie Watson, PhD (06:42.289)
Yeah.

George (06:51.981)
You see a couple fighting over it. She’s like, really just, you know, I’m exhausted with the kids. You know, I really need help. just like, I just want to pass out. I just survived the day. And you look at me and you want a blowjob. You know, and like, how can you ask that knowing how exhausted I am? And he’s like, how much work is a blowjob? It’s not going to take you too long. I mean, I just worked a 12 hour shift. I’m asking for two minutes. Is that too hard? It’s like they’re on different planets, right?

Laurie Watson, PhD (07:12.264)
you

Yeah, there are different planets. You’re right though, it’s not funny because people are so frustrated with each other. I guess for me, when it comes down to demand or exchange, right, I’m gonna do this for our relationship, you give me s*x, it loses the quality of eroticism that makes sex worth having.

You know, it’s like, it’s not about want, it’s not about desire. It’s about you owe me and that is not so sexy. And I think what I worry about is if the demand is met, George, do they get what they want? You know, I mean, maybe it’s like, I get an orgasm, you know, I get somebody to do it in, but it’s like, do they really get what they’re hoping for and longing for and wanting, which is

a partner that’s coming toward them freely with some joy and play and sexiness. It’s like, if your partner just says, okay, can we do it fast? It’s like, okay, I got two minutes for you, buddy.

George (08:15.171)
Yeah.

George (08:26.542)
It’s, it’s tricky. It’s tricky. mean, there is some natural exchange that I think is in all, all dynamics. We really just talking what percentage of it for me, like if I’m going away for the weekend, I’m expecting some of that time. You know, there is, there is an expectation that, know, work hard. This is a chance to enjoy ourselves. This is part of enjoying ourselves. Right. So, you know, if my wife feels the pressure of that, you know,

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:50.728)
Sure.

George (08:55.246)
Cause she knows if there’s not, that’s probably going to be a bit grumpy. So like there is the demands we put on each other in this area. I don’t know how realistic it is to never do that, but I hear what you’re saying when that starts to become the norm, when you’re giving sex in exchange for what you’re receiving in other areas of your life, that is going to set your body up to not really want to have sex.

Laurie Watson, PhD (09:16.442)
Absolutely. I don’t think, I mean, there is implicit pressure, sure, right? Maybe, maybe your wife has sex to keep you happy. But I’m not sure that that necessarily is the quality of what you would want, you know.

George (09:34.228)
No. And I think most people that are demanding sex wish it could be different. They don’t want to be, they’re just not willing to settle for not having it. So they’re trying to stand up in a clumsy way that just puts more pressure on their partner. You know, so how do we do that differently?

Laurie Watson, PhD (09:49.424)
Right, right. And this is the problem, I think, when people say, look, I have stopped demanding sex. I never ask. I never do it anymore. There’s an implicit demand because it is an explicit sexual relationship. There’s a promise to be faithful to each other. So it’s like, OK, even if you don’t ask but your partner knows you still want it, there is kind of a demand underneath that.

George (10:19.625)
I like that we’re honoring that. Instead of, you know, it’s so politically correct to just say, hey, listen, it’s totally inappropriate to ever demand sex, which I can understand on argument two. I could understand that.

Laurie Watson, PhD (10:27.56)
So I think it’s not about appropriateness for me. And I think there is a difference between demand and promise. We make a promise to each other to be sexual, to be erotic, to stay away from all others. It’s promise. And so that is different than responding to our partner’s demand. It’s something that has to come from an internal way.

George (10:46.487)
right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (10:56.956)
You know, if we’re taking care of our children and we say, you know, our children are demanding that I provide for them and stuff like that. I mean, that’s insane, right? We take care of our children and we work very hard to do that because we care and love about our children. That’s the motive. Do we hate going to work sometimes? But do we go to work and we show up and we do our stuff? Yes, we do. I mean, it’s like…

George (11:15.341)
Mm-hmm.

George (11:24.385)
like the reframe of keeping your promise. Right. I like the reframe of keeping a promise. Like you both committed to something and you’re sometimes willing to do something even if you’re not in a mood because you you want to keep your promise and you know, your partner’s doing a ton of things they don’t want to be doing too. That’s part of a partnership. You know, it gets tricky when one partner stops keeping their promise and then the other partner gets put in a position of having to kind of demand it. And now we got, we got some really ugly dynamics.

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:25.946)
It’s a responsibility. What?

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:42.992)
Right, exactly.

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:54.084)
Exactly. And I mean, I would say, right, you people say, well, you you talk to me. You you talk to me before we got married, you set a climate that, you know, I felt really safe. I felt really connected. It’s like you’ve stopped doing that, too. You know, I feel like I have to demand that, you know, that we we set time aside for each other. You’re saying you’ve also changed the deal. You know, so I mean, I think

George (12:20.663)
Yeah.

Laurie Watson, PhD (12:23.1)
I think when we come down to this sense of demand, it’s going to screw up everything because how many withdrawers, George, out there really like it when their partner says, you owe me a conversation, you owe me a daily debrief. How good is that going to go? Yeah.

George (12:35.469)
Well, let’s come back. It’s not going to go well. So let’s do that. Let’s come back and try to figure out how do we kind of claw ourselves out of this ugly dynamics.

Laurie Watson, PhD (12:53.948)
Maybe we should do a role play.

George (12:56.855)
So I do.

Sometimes we bring up things that there isn’t easy fixes for. mean, you want to connect to the good reasons both partners find themselves in this place. know, nobody wants to be demanding. Nobody wants to be demanded sex. It doesn’t bring out the best in the bedroom. So, and listen, we’re both big fans of don’t have sex that’s bad for you. The health of saying no to some of these things, you know, there’s health in protest and I don’t like this. I deserve.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:04.711)
Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:24.935)
Right.

George (13:28.435)
sex and his health and saying I don’t want sex under these conditions. Right. That’s why a lot of couples want them not having sex.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:32.413)
Right.

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think the person who is demanding, we know they have to come forward with vulnerability, right? They have to talk about how it means something to them, how it feeds their connection to their partner and what they feel when they’re not having sex, which is, know, empty, unappreciated. I mean, those are all valid things. But to just say, you you owe me.

George (13:44.237)
Mm-hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (14:03.944)
It’s not gonna go that well and it’s just not going to accomplish what they even want.

George (14:08.137)
You’re focusing on the other person and you’re not asking for help, right? I love that. That’s why we’re fans of vulnerability. It’s just coming from a place of self that this is my struggle. You might have good reasons. You’re not in a mood, but when I don’t get that connection, I go to some bad places and I really need your help. I want to talk about this. mean, that’s really important. If you don’t allow yourself to do that, if you just want to fix your partner by saying, you you suck, you should read a book and like fix yourself. It’s,

Laurie Watson, PhD (14:10.877)
Right.

George (14:36.813)
Not going to get that caregiving system from your partner. It’s going to get their own kind of pressures and stresses.

Laurie Watson, PhD (14:40.008)
Right, when we’re blaming our partner for the dynamic, first of all, we’re not seeing our own responsibility in creating the dynamic. And second of all, that leaves us kind of powerless because we’re waiting for somebody else to change. And it doesn’t go that well in conversation and in communication with our partner. We really want to bring forward our need and make our requests clear.

George (14:57.09)
Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (15:10.054)
you know, versus saying, you know, you’re not doing your part. You know, that doesn’t feel so good. Because there’s usually like, what is that? That’s going to engender defense, right? Well, you’ve changed too. You’re not really doing your part or you’re not doing the same things that you used to do that made me happy. my gosh. And then we’re off to the races in a big cycle and a negative cycle. So tell us, George, like, what do you do?

George (15:10.155)
Yep.

George (15:27.052)
Yeah.

George (15:33.879)
And the same with the Wichitaur. Well, it’s the same with the Wichitaur. mean, the Wichitaur has to…

speak authentically about the position that they’re in, you know, they just either forced themselves to do it or, or, you know, say nothing. They don’t talk about the bind that puts them in or the pressure. And that’s, that’s the same, not engaging, right? Both partners in a negative cycle of not being vulnerable and not being direct with their needs, not asking for help. They’re seeing the other person as the problem. You know, the, what your says, my partner just doesn’t care. They’re selfish or narcissistic and all these labels we use to describe and not see our part in it.

Laurie Watson, PhD (16:03.078)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (16:11.174)
which pushes away those labels, push away and define a partner in a way that it becomes impossible to solve. yeah, let’s do it. OK. I want to be I’ll be the passive, the withdrawing partner. And you can be kind of the more. Yeah, we should be Joey and Maria. You can be kind of pushy, pushy Joey.

George (16:11.48)
That’s why we always want to blame the cycle.

George (16:22.006)
Let’s do it. Let’s role play it. Let’s see maybe how couples can do it. Who do you want to be?

George (16:31.182)
It would be Joey Maria again, Joey Maria, right? In our book, they’re just our prototype of a just typical, you know, heterosexual couple where the male is the pursuer sexually and the females are the withdraw and they switch roles emotionally. And it just makes it easier, right? We know couples come in all shapes and sizes and orientations and all that stuff matters. And it’s important, you know, but to just get these concepts out there. So.

Who wants, what’s the mission? And this is important. Like we got to add, these are two separate conversations. Does Joey want to come forward in an authentic way and get caregiving from Maria? What does Maria want to talk about what it’s like to be asked in a demanded way and then get the care given of Joey when couples try to have all of those conversations at the same time. That’s usually what leads to neither one of them being heard. So where do we want to go first?

Laurie Watson, PhD (17:18.002)
Well, we’ve only got five minutes. six minutes. Okay. Okay. Seven minutes. Do it quick. It’s more than two minutes. Okay. Go ahead.

George (17:21.016)
We got seven. All right. I’ll do it quick. All right. So you’re going to give me care given. All right. Well, I got two and half. So you, you I’ll ask first for help. All right. So you’re going to give me care given. All right. So, so Maria.

Laurie Watson, PhD (17:34.448)
Okay, okay.

Okay, I will do that.

George (17:42.733)
I know you’re busy and I’m busy and you know, it’s so easy just to get passed out in the bed. But I do, I just want to let you into, I’m not trying to pressure you or tell you you’re doing it wrong. I know you’re doing the best you can. You know, it’s just when I, I’m exhausted, it’s like the whole work, the whole day is like gray. It’s just, I have nothing to look forward to. And the one thing I look forward to is at the end of the night,

that we get some time together to connect, you know, and touching you and just being physical is just, it’s just, it’s like a reward for my, for all the work. And I just feel like alive again. feel like this is why we’re doing like, just feel in love. It just, it just, you know, it does great things for me, right? And when I don’t get that, you know, it’s hard to stop some of the tapes that play, cause I feel disconnected. I feel, I feel lonely. I start to feel.

discouraged and, you know, I, I try to stop the tapes because I know it’s not your fault. It’s just, get into these negative cycles and, but it really, I get, start to get defeated and I start to feel pretty, helpless.

Laurie Watson, PhD (18:54.6)
Gosh, Joey. First of all, I really didn’t know you were in such a low place about this. I think when you said it’s like a gray day, I’m like, ugh, that feels really terrible to me.

that you feel lonely and you’re right. I do know that this makes you feel connected and it’s a joy at the end of the night and often it is for me too. But I guess I appreciate that you’re telling me this. Sometimes you don’t really tell me what happens underneath and it really feels good that you’re letting me into how bad it feels even though I don’t want you to feel bad. I really don’t want you to feel these things.

But I guess I, like you said, it’s a reward at the end of the day and it makes you feel so good. And I have seen that in you. I have seen that it just makes your morning so great, know, as if you need your morning to be great anyway, but.

George (19:52.161)
And I don’t, I think I try to protect you because I don’t want you to feel criticized. And I try to protect myself because I want to get into a conversation that leads to a fight. So I just think, all right, you know, tomorrow would be another day. Just don’t worry about it. I try to let it go, but I realized that starts to build my resentment. I find myself starting to withdraw and you know, and I just don’t want to do that. just, I want to try to have this conversation earlier. So I appreciate you being open to it.

Laurie Watson, PhD (20:17.99)
Yeah, it makes so much sense. Makes so much sense, right, that you don’t want to trigger me and you don’t want to, you know, you don’t want to get into a conflict, especially into the night. And I mean, it makes sense that you don’t bring it up often, but I do appreciate you bringing it up. And I, I really don’t want this for you. This, this gray day, this, you know, kind of working for nothing, just this sense of

You know, we’re not connected. There’s no joy is what I’m hearing you say. if this is missing in our lives. Am I?

George (20:51.532)
Yeah. And again, if I will get turned on, if we start touching, but if you’re not in a mood, like, and we’re still cuddling, that’s still really good for me. Like I just do like that, that physical part at the end of the day, that just kind of seems to reset my body. Don’t always have to be sick.

Laurie Watson, PhD (21:06.94)
Yeah, I get that. Okay, okay, that really feels like less pressure. So let’s just think about what’s just happened here. know, George, as Joey, does a beautiful job of talking through kind of his emotional state about the joy that he gets out of sex and how it’s going for him right now in a way that really, really…

even as a role play does not set off my body into defense, you because he’s so vulnerable and he’s he’s giving me a lot of credit and he’s just talking about his experience. You know, I thought that was like if if men could just or any sexual withdraw, not just men, because we know women are sexual or are sexual pursuers, too. But if they could talk about it that way, I think that would be beautiful. We need to like put this on Instagram or something.

George (22:01.558)
And if you can’t, right, it’s clumsy when you first try to have these conversations. But again, with repetition, it’s the same thing over and over again. You start to find your words. So just start the conversation. All right, let’s reciprocate it.

Laurie Watson, PhD (22:01.628)
this whole dialogue.

Laurie Watson, PhD (22:13.22)
Okay, okay, I’m going to be Maria who is taxed and not thinking about sex.

George (22:16.471)
Yeah.

and has been asked for some demanded sex. Are you owe me a little time? All right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (22:23.196)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, Joey, look at Betty. I know sex is important, and it’s important to me, it’s important to our relationship. And we just kind of got into this cycle again, and kind of what I was hearing from you was that somehow or another I owed you this. And it’s like, Joey.

We are partners. It’s like, don’t want our relationship to be about what you owe me or tallying things up or what you’ve done and what I’ve done. I want us to just work together. And I am tapped right now. I just, you know, the kids.

the household, know, what the community is asking, driving them around, making you dinner. I try so hard to care for you and make our home run smoothly. I mean, this has just been the busiest time with the holidays and.

And when I heard that come at me, just, I went through this, oh my God, it’s one more thing on the list and he’s saying I’m failing and he can’t kind of see me, can’t see all the gifts that I’m trying to give him. It’s like the one thing that, one more thing that I’m not doing. I just, I felt so crushed and it just, it made me feel like.

Is this really just, we gonna, are we like sort of in some sort of business and we’re gonna tally it? That’s not what I want between us. I want us to just feel generous with each other. And right now I get it, you need this. I totally get it. I’m just so needing your generosity in terms of seeing what I’m up against.

George (24:13.166)
I appreciate you letting me know because I do get too caught up in what’s happening for me and I don’t really see you in these moments. So, you know, to know now that, you know, it makes you feel pretty lonely and the message that you’re failing and it just puts more pressure on you. I mean, I know that I don’t want to do that, but I can see how that happens in these moments and I’m really sorry about that.

Laurie Watson, PhD (24:38.076)
Yeah, I mean, I thank you. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it’s I don’t I want to come out of this. I just feel like I’ve been under this weight and I want to come out of it and sort of be in that place with you. That is, you know, fun. You know, I’m I’m looking forward to end of January, you know, going on our trip and.

I too treasure the time that we have when we’re light. just, got so kind of afraid that we were going down a bad path about…

George (25:16.674)
Yeah. And you are fun and it’s hard to have fun when you’re exhausted and pressured. Right. So again, I’m glad you have a voice and you’re speaking up because, you know, forcing yourself to have sex with me. mean, again, I think that’s bad for both of us. mean, I put the pressure on you try to respond to it and, know, it’s I hate that that happens to you. So I am really happy. Hope you can hear that part of it, that you’re speaking up for yourself because.

Laurie Watson, PhD (25:45.114)
I do. And I so appreciate that because I know that’s not how we used to talk about it. And I love that. I, you know, I’m I’m open. I think I’m we’ve to find a way to have more fun quickies so that I don’t feel so taxed. And, you know, there’s moments I think we can work it out. I just I mean, I’m not saying we should wait till January. Certainly, I just.

I just want it to be where it’s born out of our love and our attraction to each other and our desire, not because you’ve worked so hard or you’ve given it up because I’ve worked so hard. That’s not fair either. I get that.

George (26:27.074)
Yeah.

All right, so now we have this conversation about tonight. All right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (26:32.252)
Right. How can we make it fun enough for you to want to do it? Times of stress. I’m all about vibrators, right? Times of stress. Make it fast. Make it fun.

George (26:46.51)
Well, let’s say we’ll just, it is always fun to just try to have some role plays and, know, put ourselves in our own lives or the client’s lives that we’ve listened to that, you know, we have good reasons we get stuck and miss each other, but when we can talk to each other in different ways, we could have different results.

Laurie Watson, PhD (27:04.082)
Yep. Thanks for listening.

George (27:07.362)
Keep it hot, y’all.