With the new year, the podcast gets a new name! Brave Love Great Sex! The same great content, the same great hosts!

We’re aligning the podcast with our new book that will be out in 2026 from Penguin Random House. Pre order it today.

Check out this episode’s sponsors (and help the pod!):

RexMD.com/foreplay — Discrete, convenient support for ED. Shipped directly to you. Use the link for up to 95% off your first order.

Uberlube.com — Laurie’s all time favorite personal lubricant. If you haven’t tried it yet, it’s a new year! Use the code ‘BRAVELOVE’ to get 10% off

Transcript

Laurie Watson, PhD (03:11.465)
Welcome to Brave Love Great Sex. We are so happy to have you here with us. Our new podcast name, we’re the same old George and Lori from For Play, but we are happy to share with you kind of the reasons we’ve switched our name and what you can expect.

George (03:13.166)
Okay.

George (03:32.462)
All righty. Here we go.

Laurie Watson, PhD (03:35.091)
Okay, so you know, I think our old name, Foreplay, was fun. It was definitely fun. I don’t know if I’ve told you the story of how I got that name, but it was, you know, I had been offered a radio spot right before the UNC Chapel Hill football and basketball games. And so we were thinking about it we’re like, Foreplay, like right before the game, this is great.

And so that’s how the name evolved, but it’s only one slice of the picture. And I think when people would hear that name, they would think, okay, it’s only about sex. But really what you and I talk about is that kind of arc of emotional and sexual connection.

George (04:19.362)
Yeah, we’re paying attention to the state of the relationship. What does that bond look like? And all the factors that influence the bond. Why are we here on this planet to connect, to attach, to be part of something, right? And it’s our greatest strength as a species and we’re trying to celebrate that here.

Laurie Watson, PhD (04:37.311)
Yeah, and while we think sex is love, part of love, it does kind of delineate, the name delineates the two cycles of attachment, the emotional and sexual cycle that we primarily work with on the podcast. Not to say that there isn’t a third cycle of caretaking and that that’s how we give to our partner and meet their needs, but love and sex is kind of what people think of, I believe, when they’re thinking about what a romance is.

George (05:06.958)
And they obviously intermingle. You can’t have brave love and, you know, there’s emotions and sex and there’s love and sex and there’s this kind of switching back and forth. really starting off, I love the word brave. I don’t know if you know they call the FDNY, New York City Fire Department, the bravest, right? There’s something about that word that just is, you know, we’re willing, we all get scared.

Laurie Watson, PhD (05:18.027)
Right.

George (05:33.174)
But brave people are willing to head towards their fears. They see opportunity in the fears. And that’s really what we’re trying to do here. It takes courage to listen to your vulnerability. I think about attachment and I say, it takes fears to put aside your def… I mean, it takes bravery to put aside your defenses. First, you have to do that. Then you got to be brave to talk about the hurt underneath the defenses.

Laurie Watson, PhD (05:33.525)
Mm-hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (05:37.171)
Right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (05:55.529)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (06:00.801)
Mm.

George (06:01.045)
And then you got to be brave. got to ask for help because we do better with struggle and hurt and fear and anxiety with the people we love coming closer to us. Like co-regulation is definitely the best way of managing it. But all these things take bravery.

Laurie Watson, PhD (06:16.007)
Exactly. And that’s what our new title kind of celebrates is the brave love that couples have to kind of show each other when they reveal their underbelly to each other and their need for each other. And that’s what it’s the courage that we need in order to rebuild intimacy or to have intimacy for a lifelong relationship.

George (06:25.399)
Yeah.

George (06:38.719)
I love the image of porcupines and how they have sex. Do you know this one, All right, well, for our listeners, they come up to each other with their spikes, rigid and ready to do damage, you know, and they kind of one partner looks the other in the eye and literally strokes their face with the eye contact and the needle quill things kind of go down. They got to relax. We know humans are the same. We, great lovers are relaxed.

Laurie Watson, PhD (06:41.889)
I do know this one, George.

Laurie Watson, PhD (07:08.161)
That’s right.

George (07:08.182)
But they use that kind of vulnerability to bring about the relaxation.

Laurie Watson, PhD (07:16.019)
I love that. It’s a great story. It’s a great story. know, I, speaking of that sense of relaxing and stroking, you know, I’m holding grand babies these days and I often hold a child to my chest, you know, and you’re rubbing their back and patting their bottom. And I’m like, what could be more comforting than being held?

to somebody’s chest and have your bottom patted while you’re falling asleep. It’s like, it is the most intimate, of most loving kind of connection, right? And I think that in order to get there, in order to have, you gotta put your quills down. You gotta like be able to take in that love that comes when somebody strokes your face or holds you to them.

George (08:10.445)
And these grandbabies are learning the beauty of touch, which is going to make for a lot easier time with sex when they’re older, right? Their body has all this muscle memory just did an intensive with a, you know, with a client that had not only no healthy positive touch, but only negative touch as a child. Right. And how does that not kind of

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:18.151)
Exactly.

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:29.439)
Mm-hmm.

George (08:32.427)
teach the brain like you’re better off alone taking care of yourself self soothing co-regulation is a dangerous thing right so I just love that image I mean you’re you’re patting the baby’s back and rubbing their you know all of that is just their body learning like relax touch is a good thing this is what you do to let go yeah you’re and pleasurable

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:39.254)
Right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:49.505)
Mm-hmm. Touch is safe. Yeah, touch is safe. Absolutely. And pleasurable. I think about it sets the foundation, like you said, that touch is good. somebody who loves you and holds you can be trusted. we’ve had a lot of feedback from the episode we did, just a few back about…

particularly women who don’t receive enough affection and touch in their childhood and how that, like they defend against the very need for it by kind of rejecting adult eroticism and sexuality because it wasn’t safe. They never learned that there was gonna be enough, that they were gonna be held when they needed it, when they were going to be hugged, when they were hurting, you know, all of that. They just didn’t get it and so it’s so hard for their bodies to learn

to give into that touch, which I often think that there’s something very miraculous about a person who is under-touched being partnered with somebody who needs touch to feel loved. mean, could there be a healing that would be better than that?

George (09:59.886)
Yeah.

George (10:05.833)
Absolutely. And that’s the bravery, right? That people need because it makes sense. Why you just don’t want to go back to the past. You don’t want to revisit these things. They, didn’t get it. They were hurtful. We block it out. And yet in blocking it out, we also block out these parts of ourselves that are kind of stunted or hurts or like, there’s needs in there. Like unmet needs is constantly the theme of this show. We’re trying to get people.

Laurie Watson, PhD (10:07.423)
Yeah.

George (10:33.409)
to face their vulnerability because it’s going to tell them how to help them. And when we get that help and we have success in co-regulation, it changes the game.

Laurie Watson, PhD (10:42.367)
Yeah, exactly. And we have to take a step, right? I mean, it’s never actually safe enough for us to trust. It’s like there’s something inside that has to take courage, has to be brave, and has to open up. You know, we have to risk in order to receive the healing and the love that we need. And that’s a hard truth.

George (11:09.215)
truth. And we got to be brave to respond when our partner opens up and to not make it about us and just continue to defend. mean, when you work with couples, two people have to be brave simultaneously to create change. That’s why it’s hard. All it takes is one person just going with the old moves and everybody gets sucked back into these protective places.

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:30.663)
Exactly, exactly. But one person’s got to start it maybe. Somebody’s got to start it for sure.

George (11:34.093)
Someone’s gotta start it.

George (11:38.605)
And we throw this word around, you know, but it really, it’s amazing. I’ve been teaching now doing this for over 25 years and it still surprises me, although it shouldn’t like what I have to do. One of these vulnerable risks in my relationship. It’s like, I could teach it all day. It’s not the same thing as when you have to do it, when you actually have to turn to your partner, you have to be willing to touch these places yourself and let your partner in.

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:57.567)
Mm-hmm.

George (12:07.982)
Right. Cause you run the risk of being hurt further. And that’s why so many of us just learned to hedge our bets and not take risks because it’s safer. Well, we don’t realize the cost and not taking risks and not being brave as we were left alone in these places.

Laurie Watson, PhD (12:08.001)
Mm

Laurie Watson, PhD (12:22.025)
Yeah, we are. And I think that, you know, we do so much deep talk here on the podcast that while our original name for play was playful and fun, I think we really wanted to symbolize what you’re talking about, that this is deep relational work that we’re talking about in order to secure people’s bond and have that alive, vibrant sexuality that they…

you know, makes every day kind of a holiday. So I think our new name is talking about what you’re saying, George. It’s like, it’s describing that a little bit better than maybe foreplay did.

George (13:03.054)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and there’s a lot of bravery and also we talk about green brains, like being relaxed. When we’re securely attached, we can laugh, we can joke, we can play. Like, there’s freedom in this goal of secure attachment.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:20.437)
There is freedom. There is absolute freedom. And that’s what secure sex looks like, right? It looks like the most experimentation, the freest, the least inhibitions, sort of the longest lasting sex bond that there can be if we will do the hard work of reaching secure attachment.

George (13:43.431)
Which is why we’re not scared of if there’s a challenge or we have a breakthrough and we want to be celebrating, be proud. Both of them take courage, right? Celebrating what works or trying to pivot and repair what doesn’t work. You know, that takes intentionality. And really that’s the theme of what we’re trying to get couples to do. Like take this bond seriously. And the more seriously you take it,

The irony is the more free you are to play and be relaxed.

Laurie Watson, PhD (14:14.685)
Exactly, exactly. Well, let’s come back and talk some more about our name change and kind of the direction of the podcast so that people really understand where we’re going. We definitely want to do this so new listeners get a hold of kind of our direction, right?

George (14:32.494)
We need your help people. Keep spreading the word. Hopefully this is easier for people to find than the other ones.

Laurie Watson, PhD (14:43.667)
Okay, so yes, we also have a new Instagram account that is Brave Love Great Sex. We’ve changed the name from the ForPlay podcast, which was difficult to find on Instagram. So please follow us there as well. Brave Love Great Sex on Insta, and we’re changing our names on Facebook and on Apple, and that should change by the first of the year. And I think what you said right before the break, like please.

follow us and help us spread the word. was one thing I think that was difficult was I even had girlfriends who were like, I don’t really want to follow foreplay. That makes it seem like I’m following a site that is a little racy. And we’re still going to talk about racy things sexually, but.

George (15:30.008)
Well, we left it. Right. We left in great love, which is brave. A lot of people are encouraging us. I mean, great sex to leave off sex because just that word alone makes a lot of people not want to kind of plug into the radar. You don’t want to pass it along to your friends. And we decided to take a stand for that one. We decide, Hey, wait a second. This is we’re talking about great, healthy sex that research backs and supports as,

Laurie Watson, PhD (15:50.176)
Yeah.

George (15:57.527)
what works and we need to get this message out. Right. So part of brave love is having great sex and we need to not apologize for kind of what that is, what it looks like and shouting it from the mountaintops.

Laurie Watson, PhD (16:00.532)
Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (16:10.525)
Yeah. And this is this is who we are. We’re teaching about emotional connection, erotic intimacy. This is kind of what we teach about. It’s our legacy. And we’ve also written a book, right, George, that’s going to be published in twenty twenty six about it’s called Great Love, Great Sex and it’s no, I’m sorry. It’s called Brave Love, Great Sex and picking up a theme. But I mean, I think it’s because

George (16:23.363)
Yeah.

George (16:30.254)
Brave love.

Pickin’ up a theme here, people.

Laurie Watson, PhD (16:38.933)
This is what’s so close to our heart is the intersection of these two areas of relationship. we really wanted people on the podcast to understand how emotional attachment and sexuality shape lasting intimacy. We want them to know that the way these are two equivalent parts of love and that that’s who we are. And so when people tune in, we just thought we need a name that better describes it.

George (17:09.484)
Yeah. I mean, we’re basically talking about attachment, but that’s not such a sexy name. it attachment theory or not as sexy as a name. And it’s more specific to get into, but I really do. We talk a lot about great sex and that’s important, but I really think brave loving captures. mean, that is critical for anything that we’re doing in relationships. If we’re going to be our authentic selves, if we’re going to be present.

Laurie Watson, PhD (17:18.453)
Not as sexy, for sure.

George (17:38.413)
Right. We show up, be comfortable around skins. It’s all about vulnerability. It’s, counterintuitive. A lot of times we want to present the parts of ourselves that we think people will like and hide the parts of ourselves that we think will be judged or come up short or is lacking. And yet it’s all that apposition and all that wear and mask trying to conform and fit in that really just kills levels of engagement over time.

Right, so to be brave and say, listen, this is who I am. I’ve learned to survive. I learned this language. And, you know, the good news is if we could identify the language we speak, we could learn new languages if we’re willing to be brave and face it.

Laurie Watson, PhD (18:02.463)
That is so true.

Laurie Watson, PhD (18:19.583)
Right, exactly, exactly. And I think that…

You know, we want people to know that sexual attachment is part of this place where we also have to be brave, right? Sex doesn’t come naturally. It’s something that we need to work at in long-term relationship. It’s something that needs to be understood. There is a pursue-withdraw cycle there. And it too requires a sense of courage and bravery to…

to share with each other how much it means. I mean, I know I had a couple come in and say, this was long ago, but he said, tell me that when we leave, Lori, I’m not gonna be having sex a lot less than I want and my partner’s gonna be having sex a lot more than she wants. And I’m like, no, that would be a horrible ending to a good therapy treatment. It’s like really what needs to happen is he needed to be vulnerable about.

the need, he needed to be brave about what it felt like in him to want and long for her sexually so that she could hear that instead of the pressure. And she needed to both be brave in terms of talking about like her inner fears about being used, her inner fears about being out of control. I mean, there’s so much in the sexual relationship itself that

We also need that courage to talk with each other very frankly and expose to each other like what is actually happening in us as we deal with sexuality in our relationship.

George (20:04.174)
Yeah, and there’s a lot of attachment research on how to help couples outside the bedroom. There’s not a lot of talk around what to do in the bedroom. And yes, I couldn’t agree more. What is more vulnerable than laying naked with your partner in this space? I mean, it is the biggest doorway into vulnerability. And yet a lot of us don’t know how to be brave there because we haven’t grown up with resources or ways of talking about it. And that’s really the power

Laurie Watson, PhD (20:14.837)
Mm-hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (20:23.199)
Yeah.

George (20:34.178)
that both of us share. It’s like really trying to help people learn to show up in their authentic selves, know, sexually to be able to communicate what’s working and what’s not working.

Laurie Watson, PhD (20:45.525)
Yeah, and I think that what’s more vulnerable than that is opening our erotic mind to each other. Certainly touch is super, super brave, but also revealing how we feel about touch and all of that is even another layer, right? And I think a monogamous long-term relationship requires us to do that if we’re going to make it exciting for a lifetime.

George (21:13.198)
I know a lot of people, a lot of men, I just came from a training and work with the military and it’s like just a word, vulnerability, and he stopped listening. come on, vulnerability, I don’t want to do it. So get rid of the word. I mean, it’s really all we’re saying is how do you send more direct signals? How do you communicate more clearly? How do you be more honest and authentic? Choose the word you want, but this is the space to do it, right? With the person you’re committed to in this relationship.

If you want that bond to be strong and have the most success, you both got to be sending clear signals to each other.

Laurie Watson, PhD (21:46.215)
Exactly, exactly. And it’s not something that we’re taught in our sexual relationship. We don’t see that modeled.

George (21:52.719)
Yeah, we’re taught your partner is going to be a mind reader and know perfectly what you want. They respond. You don’t have to take any risks.

Laurie Watson, PhD (22:02.175)
Yeah, and your partner’s gonna be ever longing for you, ever wanting it. That’s what porn shows, that’s what the movies show. It’s this explosive chemical moment, right? We don’t see that it’s something that is built into our relationship, built into our day, that it’s intentional. And that it requires so much personal growth.

I mean, I think to become a lifetime sexual partner with somebody is to have, you know, to be different, to become a brave person.

George (22:44.472)
how you’re highlighting the personal growth. mean, people reluctant these conversations. It’s awkward, it’s clumsy, might hurt each other. Yeah, but the opportunity for growth is like no other conversation. I mean, this is it. If you want to understand the deepest, darkest places in you and your partner, if you want to increase levels of engagement, if you want to have more safety, which creates a platform to take more risks, I mean, it’s all in this direction.

Laurie Watson, PhD (22:58.315)
Mm-hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (23:11.463)
Exactly, exactly. was teaching a training the other day and I was just telling them like, personally, I think my sex life is markedly markedly markedly markedly better than it was as a young woman because of, I mean, I experience more sensation, but I think it’s because of this bravery. You know, I’ve set about

dropping my own inhibitions, allowing myself to communicate to my partner, my husband, what I like, sharing what it feels like. I mean, this has not just expanded us relationally, but literally expanded what I feel during sex. It’s that personal growth that we can do that is bigger than hormones, because I know my hormones have dropped, and maybe I’m just lucky that I have enough left over that give me that kind of sensation.

But I kind of tend to think because I’ve traced my hormones that it’s also about this part of me that is so determined for this to be a vulnerable, brave space for me.

George (24:19.566)
Yeah, and I’ve appreciated in my relationship just having some of these conversations around misses and discrepancy and struggles. It’s really opened a doorway to kind of more compassion, more understanding, more empathy, more caregiving for each other, right? That it forces some conversations that probably I wouldn’t have in other areas of my life. You know, it feels like it does allow

Laurie Watson, PhD (24:34.485)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (24:38.794)
Hmm.

Laurie Watson, PhD (24:45.493)
Mm-hmm.

George (24:49.583)
space for parts of me that probably wouldn’t come out otherwise.

Laurie Watson, PhD (24:54.591)
Hmm. That’s lovely to hear that. That’s so neat. I think, you know, when we’re in this field doing this work, it can help, but change the way we feel about our own relationship and make us better people, more vulnerable people. I’m often challenged by people who go further than I do.

You know, I’m seeing a couple right now and their love is just so big and their risking is so big and they’re a model. I’m like, wow, you guys probably go further than I do. And it’s just a blessing to watch them.

George (25:35.151)
Well, that’s the excitement that I’m catching that we’re trying to also spread that this is, it’s such an opportunity. mean, everyone seems like initial responses. Oh, do I have to talk about this? Anytime I bring up the word sex, great sex or sex podcast, anything sex, like you get that initial resistance, like, Oh, do we have to write it? I think a lot of times they, they, they, there is an awareness of do you realize where this will take you?

If you want to increase levels of engagement, if you want to get to know each other better, if you want to have a stronger bond, this is the doorway.

Laurie Watson, PhD (26:14.421)
Right. And that’s why we’re talking about it in Brave Love Great Sex, because now our name sort of matches the journey that we’re trying to pull people into with us, right, to guide them, to help them find healing, insight, but also particularly relational change. So.

George (26:34.766)
It’s a pilgrimage towards that target of deeper intimacy.

Laurie Watson, PhD (26:36.683)
That’s right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (26:41.217)
So we might need to change the way we end this podcast now, George. Yeah, what should we say? You have your new ending, okay. So maybe I still thank the listeners for being with us. No? Lovers be brave and thanks for being with us.

George (26:44.566)
I think so. I got my new ending. Yeah.

All right. Okay. Lovers be brave.