In this episode, Laurie and George explore a pattern they see often in therapy but rarely hear women talk about openly: growing up under-touched—not abused or mistreated, but raised with too little warm, affectionate contact. Many girls learn early to be “little adults,” self-reliant and emotionally contained, with parents who provided care but not soothing. Inside, they adapt by dialing down their need for touch and connection. As adults, these women often struggle with desire, sensuality, and responsiveness—not because they’re broken, but because their bodies never learned that touch is comforting, safe, or connecting.
Laurie shares her clinical insight that erotic shutdown can be a predictable outcome of emotional neglect and under-stimulation, especially for women who are socialized to mute their physical needs. George joins her in mapping how attachment deactivation, low interoceptive awareness, and a lifetime of caregiving roles shape many women’s sexual experiences. Together they offer hope and clarity: with attuned affection, emotional safety, and pressure-free touch, the erotic body can awaken. Desire isn’t missing—it’s been waiting for the right conditions to flourish.
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Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:10.053)
Okay, George, I want to talk about why some children who are not touched really crave sex, because that makes sense, but why some don’t, and particularly why women, when they’re not touched, of stop craving adult sexual touch. This is a conundrum. I want to talk about it with you.
George (00:32.288)
Let’s do it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:34.091)
Let’s do it.
George (00:36.514)
Before we do that Laurie, I think it’s official right we are rebranding new name brave love couples therapy
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:41.849)
We are rebranding. Brave Love. Right, Brave Love Couples Therapy, our subtitle’s still up for grabs. But a lot of people have told us. We’ve even had letters from our readers, are letters from our listeners that say, yeah, this means I’ll be able to share it with my friends. And trust me, we would love for you to share the podcast with your friends. That really helps our growth.
helps us get the word out to people about this. I was sitting on my own front desk in my office this week and everybody who called, I talked to them about the cycle. I said, yeah, you’re coming for couples therapy and most people, there’s this cycle that they get into. One person pushes for more connection and closeness, maybe talking and weirdly it just like.
makes the other person feel pressured and the more pressured they feel, you know, they pull back and weirdly that makes the other person more anxious and, and they get caught in this thing. And sometimes it’s reversed in their sex life. Every single person I talked to said, you just described us. And I think that’s what we’re doing in the podcast, right? Is we’re trying to describe the cycles that people get into and how strange it feels when we’re doing something that makes so much sense, impacts our partner.
in a way that triggers them.
George (02:10.68)
We’re all in this mess together and I think it’s two parts. It’s understanding the negative cycle that’s not working, but even more important is how do you replace it with a positive cycle, right? It’s those unmet needs underneath the defenses that when you start asking for help and having your partner come closer, it’s a game changer. So yeah, we’re in this mess together. There’s a simplicity to understanding cycles that’s relevant to everybody.
So yes, please spread the word. need patrons to support us. You know, we’re trying to get this message out. The book hopefully will be out right in September. Secure Love, Great Sex or whatever name. They keep changing names. Me and Laurie just go for the ride here, right? But it’s, you know, an exciting time because we have a mission and this is going to be a step up in a mission. Great exposure. We really need you to partner with us and…
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:50.405)
you
George (02:59.786)
And, know, don’t have to be George or Laurie, whoever’s kind of delivering this message. really just believe that this message needs to get out there more.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:07.427)
Yep, we’ve got a lot of foot soldiers with us in the EFT community working to spread this word. And we’re grateful again for Sue Johnson’s work and her foundation of the EFT technique for how to sort of like really, really make attachment theory accessible to couples so that it can change their lives. We’re so thankful for that.
George (03:34.23)
Yeah, the center’s called the International Center for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy. Nice effect.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:40.599)
ISEFT. And if you are looking for a therapist, go to ISEFT.com. You can put in your city and find all the different EFT therapists. And we just highly recommend this as a way to get therapy that we are certain really heals the cycle. So go for that. Okay. And thank you for our existing patrons. We are grateful for your support. So I want to talk about
what happens when people are under touched in childhood, George. And George is, he’s a trooper today. He feels terrible. He’s sick. You can hear it in his voice. He’s just been having too much fun out there. Yeah. He needs a little rest. We are. Okay. He’s been teaching all over the world. You know,
George (04:23.655)
much fun. Burning a candle both ends but we’re here. We’re finishing the mission here, Laurie.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:35.139)
The research kind of shows, George, that when people are under-touched in childhood, that emotional neglect and sort of lack of affectionate touch, basically it comes inside and they say, okay, no one is there when I reach out. Needing gets me nothing. This is what I see, that this is why maybe the outcome in adult sexuality is an erotic shutdown.
You know, because there’s a little part inside that says, why should I want this when it’s not coming? It’s a very, very protective mechanism that protects our hearts from being deeply disappointed in life and allows us to keep going. I don’t need touch.
I think women, this is my theory, I think women suffer this in worse ways, although I think men can too, but men have the explosion of testosterone in puberty. And so in puberty, they kind of get a second chance to have the touch neglect redeemed through sexuality because their body pushes them to touch.
George (05:40.429)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:53.185)
and to go for sex, whereas females don’t have as much testosterone in their bodies, so they might not be pushed over to really want it. And I think that’s part of what’s going on here.
George (05:53.421)
Mm-hmm.
George (06:08.622)
To me, that’s the key factor. Does the neglect and touch at any point lead to a shift that causes that person to initiate wanting touch, right? Testosterone could help that initiation. If you’re initiating it, you’re wanting it, you’re chasing touch, all of a sudden your body can make up for it. But, you know, for a lot of people, if you got a neglect and touch, and now all of a sudden you just become responsive to other people touching you all the time, like it never kicks in that part of your body that wants touch for you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:19.161)
Mm-hmm.
George (06:38.286)
That’s a much steeper mountain decline.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:38.765)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s true. I do see a lot of women who were neglected with touch in childhood who actually become really great touching parents. You know, that they as a mother, they touch their own children, but often they still say, but I don’t really crave touch from anybody. I’m not a hugger. I’m not, you know, wild about sex. It’s fine.
George (06:53.422)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:08.655)
but they don’t kind of ever break through that ceiling that says, can want it. I think…
George (07:15.798)
Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s touch coming from a caregiving system, which is different than touch coming from your own emotional system, right? If you know your kid needs touch and you want to be successful at caregiving system response. So I agree. I’ve worked with a lot of moms who’ve been able to make up for the lack of touch they receive to their kids. But it’s still not the same as them wanting touch for their own emotional system.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:28.847)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:37.535)
own self. But that’s a brilliant distinction. Thank you for making that. I really appreciate that because you’re right, their caregiving system comes online, they can give touch to their children. However, in a romantic relationship, we also need the caregiving system to come online, right, to want to meet our partner’s needs. I do think sometimes that some of these people, the women that I, and I don’t know that there’s any science in this, but you know, sometimes
a person who is under-touched is married to a sexual pursuer who feels, touch, sex as their love language. And to me, there’s kind of something very, very beautiful and magical about that, if not purposeful, because they have partnered with somebody who needs the thing that will actually heal them. Because the truth is, is there’s still a child kind of child part that is trapped.
in this hopeless place of not getting touch. And so when they’re with a partner who wants touch, needs touch, and wants to give touch, you know, it is kind of the perfect setup if the two of them can heal that part together.
George (08:52.238)
Yeah, that’s, I agree. That’s why we’re attracted to the opposites. It’s, but it’s also crazy making, right? When you’re a sexual withdraw and your sexual pursuers trying to touch you all the time, that touch becomes something you want to avoid instead of something that you want. adds more pressure. And I think that’s, that’s the negative cycle. So many withdrawers find themselves in there. They didn’t get touch as a kid. You know, they might be able to give it for caregiving to their kids, but then they get touched out from their partner and they just, you know, they want to be alone in
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:04.291)
Mm-hmm.
George (09:22.232)
room with a book becomes their idea of a good night and that just makes sense. So how do we help them reawaken this? I don’t think there’s a human born that doesn’t want touch. You know, it’s such a beautiful way into connection. And yet for a lot of people, because of the failures in some of their relationships, know, touch becomes something, a pressure instead of something that fills us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:29.839)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:34.607)
There isn’t, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:47.225)
Well, and I think it becomes a pressure. And I think what you’re kind of hinting at here is that it can almost be overstimulating. Like touch is uncomfortable, you know, and it’s too much. Like their nervous system doesn’t calm with it. It actually goes on sort of high alert. And so instead of it being soothing, you know, it becomes uncomfortable.
be touched, hugged too tight or whatever. So it’s almost like we have to do a couple of things. We have to help them heal their emotional part here that says it’s safe to want, but also their body has remembered what it’s like to long for touch. their body and brain has misinterpreted touch now. It’s connected and it’s misinterpreted.
George (10:41.294)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:44.995)
I mean, I’m not sure I exactly know how to heal this, but I think it is healable because I think we’re humans and our brain can be rewired. And I think there’s a force inside all of us that is going toward healing. So I guess I am.
George (11:01.164)
You talk a lot about glimmers and this is where I think it’s super helpful. Like trying to catch those glimmers when you want it or you initiate it or you look for it, right? They might not be frequent, but when they are like, what is the motivation behind that? You know, do you just want to lay your head on your partner’s shoulder for a moment? Do you just want to preach and grab their hand? You know, you’re at mass or like what are the moments in your life that you actually seek some touch for you and just trying to be more intentional about what did
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:06.308)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:11.823)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:20.323)
Mm-hmm.
George (11:31.168)
like about that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:32.485)
Mm-hmm. You’re on an airplane and you’re landing and you kind of like, you know, take somebody’s hand because you recognize how touch manages that fearful part. You know, something. And I think there are sometimes ways that people allow touch, like maybe they like their hair being done. You know, they like their hair washed. They like their hair brushed.
You know, I had a child who had some sensory issues as a little kid. And one of the things that we were counseled to do was like brush his back with a certain type of brush because it reintegrated touch in a way that was pleasurable and not overstimulating. But it was stimulating enough that his brain could change. So I think there are ways that
George (12:20.462)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:31.129)
Maybe we can explore kind of brain awareness. You I think the first thing is, is you gotta have a partner who observes this in themselves. So let’s come back and talk about this to people who do know this about themselves.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:49.305)
I mean, it’s really hard to say to somebody, wow, you don’t like touch and there’s something wrong with you. That’s probably not the approach that we would suggest.
George (12:57.038)
Right.
It’s no one’s fault. whatever language you learn, right? It’s just a card you were dealt. the last thing we’d want to pathologize. But if you could identify any area you want to improve upon, you you can come up with a game plan to be more intentional. That is why I do recommend a lot of sensei focus exercises. I think there’s something about the curiosity in that just intentionally open up space to just see what are different types of touch that you like. mean,
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:06.063)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (13:28.608)
Some people I’m surprised when they do it, they thought they like tickles, but they really don’t like it, but they like something more firm pressure, texture. There’s so many different ways of touching. I like how you said it. Do you like touch when you’re a bit scared or do you like touch when you’re enjoying pleasure? Like these are all different forms of touch that like the more specific we get, the more we could kind of maximize to grow areas we want to grow.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:51.703)
Mm-hmm. Right. So maybe it’s like people have to have kind of a self-evaluation, right? Where if you identify with you’re kind of a sexual withdraw, sex is not that big a deal, and you find yourself not needing much touch in life, not a hugger, that kind of stuff, but maybe you are still a good toucher for your children. I think it’s more…
George (13:59.107)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:21.903)
problematic if the person doesn’t heal enough to touch their own children right because then they repeat history. And if that’s the case, there’s nothing wrong with you. You just need some help so that this doesn’t go forward in the next generation. You need help to learn how to touch in gentle, soft ways where you receive pleasure and your child receives pleasure. So definitely that’s an attachment issue that you can be helped with.
George (14:50.808)
Yeah, not to limit it to, you know, just touching relationships, but just be curious. Do you like touch cuddling your dog? Or do you like the silk pajamas? Do you like the warmth of the fire? Do you like a hot bath? Or do you like a massage? Do you like oil rub? Like, there’s so many ways that we can be touched that we really want to open up the canvas to have these broad strokes to play with.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:04.025)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:17.443)
Right, because if we can find more pleasure and sensory experiences, maybe we can find the pathways, the glimmer into how you can be more awakened fully. Right? It’s not just to heal your partner and to be with your partner sexually. It’s also to heal this part of you that we believe underneath the block of I don’t like to be touched is a longing.
George (15:45.464)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:45.573)
a child that wasn’t touched enough. you know, kind of have to have mercy on that kid. I think, you know, moms that I work with who deal with this often tell me, you know, my kids just, they’re just, they’re little sponges. They need so much. It’s like, right. And so did you, you know, so did you as a child and it didn’t come. and that’s why now it feels painful to allow it to come. You know, I just, I,
I feel so much. I will say, you know, one of the beautiful things about my childhood is my mother was very affectionate. My mother was troubled in many ways, but she touched me, cuddled me, rubbed my back every single night when I was going to bed. And that did lay a good touch foundation in me as a good thing. And probably a more safe path in my family, touch was safer than emotions, because emotions were so volatile.
George (16:43.138)
I would say the same in my family. Touch was a very predictable way of getting attention, getting your back scratched or simple little things that were just ways of connecting where it was harder to do around emotions, especially as a male and being taught to be tough and be angry, don’t be vulnerable. But touch was a simple way of coming back to reconnect.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:52.483)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:08.933)
I’ve seen a picture of you, I think you and your brother kissing your mom as adults. Yeah, lovely. And was your dad a hugger too in adulthood? No, with his grandchildren he was.
George (17:14.136)
Yeah.
George (17:19.296)
Right, Dad?
He was, but again, I think that’s what you said, the second, third chances. We, the good news is we always get new chances to kind of reconnect to the parts of ourselves that had to be turned away because it wasn’t safe at that moment. But my dad definitely was received neglect himself as a kid. So it was harder for him to do that. And timing matters. mean, working with people, a hug.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:35.949)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:41.676)
I see.
George (17:50.627)
could mean something before sex or there’s no strings attached. So really trying to understand non-sexual touch versus sexual touch. really just, I’m encouraging our listeners to be more specific. Some people reject touch because they’re afraid it’s gonna lead to sex. So they lose touch in all these other areas that would become pretty important.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:14.053)
I so see that, you know, that the fear of I’m gonna turn my partner on means that I can’t allow any kind of touch. And I think that this is like a way that conversation can really change that. Like if you can say, look, I appreciate your affection, but if you get an erection, I start to feel pressure. And maybe the man says, you know what?
George (18:33.624)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:42.829)
If I can an erection, can deal with that. If you still don’t want to have sex, you know, I can take it to the showers or it’ll go away. But I would rather have a relationship that is filled with touch and let me worry about the disappointment, you know, and what my body, the disappointment to arousal, my body. mean, a man can’t help it if he gets an erection, right? It’s just like he’s touching his wife. It feels good. He’s going to get an erection. That’s a natural.
George (19:08.834)
Well, it’s evidence, right? It’s evidence of why he likes touch. It leads to feeling good. So it’s not wrong that his body is wanting more of that engagement. But unfortunately, the pressure that puts on a partner who’s been neglected, they start to see his touch as something that takes from them instead of something that fills them up.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:13.134)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:19.319)
Exactly, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:29.645)
Yeah, yeah, so true.
George (19:31.992)
So we’re trying to look for exceptions to that. How can we find ways where you feel like you are filled up with touch? You got to fight for yourself to find that again. You know, so many people that don’t like touch are trying to avoid negative interactions and they don’t recognize the price to put up walls to keep out the negative as it keeps out the positive. It keeps out our body getting the replenishment that it deserves.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:38.265)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:50.799)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:55.353)
Yeah, exactly.
I also wanted to just go back for a minute to talk about parenting. And I think when I first met you, George, I came to your house and one of your boys was there, I think your oldest boy. And you were talking with him and then you went over to him and kissed his face. Like it was so sweet. So clearly, however you did this, however you managed it, you became such a
touching affectionate father that, you know, I don’t know, was it just natural for you to do that kind of stuff as a dad or were you ever conscious of I want to be different and I want to touch my kids or?
George (20:46.414)
You know, it’s funny, my kids came right after September 11th. So it was a challenging time. I think post-traumatic growth is trying to find ways. I mean, I’ve tried to find ways of making life more meaningful, given a lot of the stresses I was feeling. And certainly the relationships, my relationships became more important. You know, the time I spent with my sons and, and
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:51.813)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:56.441)
Hmm. I’ll bet.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:04.697)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:12.846)
Mm.
George (21:16.368)
them to feel known and seen and loved and all this attachment stuff that we talk about. A lot of that was formed at a really ripe age. know, me as a new dad and them as new kids, but you know, even we just were in New Orleans for Halloween, you know, and they’re 21 and they’re 24. And it’s like that they’re comfortable with a hug and kiss in public at a restaurant is to me just a sign of like their bodies.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:35.877)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:41.359)
Beautiful.
George (21:45.473)
is open, right? It doesn’t mean we’ve got a million other issues, but at least in that area, hopefully they will be able to respond. And this stuff, you my dad, who didn’t really know how to touch because of neglect, you know, something shifted within me. And I think they’re going to have a different experience than he did.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:00.975)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:06.063)
They are, they are. And that’s so much triumph, right? Because you change the cycle going forward. You know, when we change the cycle in our generation, we impact generations to come. Four generations forward, we impact when we change our cycle. Basically, we change the world, right? Because four generations of people who are healthier, more functional, more loving, that’s a revolution.
George (22:36.726)
And especially for men to, you’re talking a lot about female with Nicolak, but a lot of men, they just, because that second chance, sex is always, mean, touch is always equated with sex. There’s always a sexual component. And I want my boys to experience emotional vulnerability around touch that, you know what, when you’re watching TV and your father comes next to you and puts his arm around you, I mean, just doing that, to send your body a signal, hey, I like being with you. I like being in that space.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:47.427)
Mm-hmm.
George (23:06.65)
You know, really wanting them to be able to put words to too when they’re not feeling so great and looking for, like when you, it was helpful when you said touch around fear or insecurity. You know, I think that’s a lot of times touch, a lot of men don’t get help asking for. They just look for touch around pleasure, but they don’t look for touch around reassurance. And I think that’s an area that it’s super important too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:12.344)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:18.446)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:23.043)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:28.643)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:33.997)
It made water come into my eyes talking about your boys and how you just want to sit next to them and put your arm around them. And my gosh, right? How many men would have longed for their fathers to do that, to have given them the sense of affection is good and that they can receive love that way physically from their father with.
George (23:48.494)
you
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:58.713)
You know, being touched, being kissed. mean, beautiful, beautiful thing there, Mr. Fowler.
George (24:05.058)
Well, it’s love without performance. know, lot of love I received as a kid from my father was based on if I performed and I was able to do something on the sports field or something. you know, I really appreciate moments of presence where I don’t have to do anything at all. And I still get that sense of connection. And I think that’s what touch is really good at doing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:08.59)
It is.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:21.825)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. this was great. I think we’re done. I think we’re done. Maybe let’s ask one more time how we can help partners do this. I might say try to maybe engage one sense at a time. Maybe it’s touch. Maybe it’s looking at each other softly.
George (24:33.314)
Well, it’s.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:49.933)
Maybe it’s listening to your partner breathe, listening to their heartbeat, listening to them sing and humming. We know that humming actually quiets and calms the nervous system of an infant. And I’m sure it does the same sort of thing for a partner. And also movement, maybe rocking with our partner or.
George (24:55.438)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:14.341)
swaying, maybe slow dancing, maybe just holding each other while there’s soft music going, know, a ways that we can sort of incorporate that movement that helps our nervous system, you know, get quiet, feel calm, feel less tense. So.
George (25:32.302)
And just like the emotional withdraw, it’s not their fault. They just don’t have success with their emotions. I think the same thing with a touch withdraw. It’s not their fault. They just haven’t received the touch that they needed. This isn’t about labeling somebody as broken. It’s about inviting that person. Do you want to continue to live your life that way or are there things you want to do? Because your body is always longing for something more than just some of that.
physical distance and if you could identify that that’s really all that’s needed to come up with a plan to get more of that successful in your lives.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:58.991)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:06.021)
Beautiful. Thanks for listening.
George (26:09.666)
Keep on touching, baby.
