In today’s episode we discuss finding the reframe; your partner’s differing perspective that isn’t always obvious. Emotions like irritation or frustration are often signs of disconnection in your emotional or sexual cycle. You feel you are lacking and more easily lose patience, create a negative meaning about your partner and get stuck in your move. The reframe helps you see what’s happening from a different angle.
You’ll still be experiencing the disconnect but you’ll have a better ability to communicate with your love about what is going on for you and learn what is happening for them. The reframe is one of our favorite tools to use in therapy and we know it will be so useful for you! Even Laurie gets in on the reframe action today as George helps her see another perspective in a current situation. Learn how to shift from a place of not having enough patience for your partner to understanding and openness. Keep it hot, brave lovers!
Transcript
George (00:20.472)
Let’s talk about the reframe, seeing the bigger picture, understanding how what happens inside the bedroom impacts what happens outside and vice versa. What do you think, Laurie?
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:32.892)
I think I haven’t had sex and I’m getting crabby and cranky in the emotional cycle. That’s what I think.
George (00:41.24)
Who wants to hear about Lori’s crabbiness? Let’s do it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:42.748)
Okay.
George (00:49.806)
So you’re not having enough sex, Lori.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:52.076)
I am not having enough sex right now. That is for darn sure. We got a grandchild. We’re giving it the office. We’re giving all our energy over to our kids right now and coming home dead. But I’m not too dead to have sex. But I think my husband either thinks I am or he’s too dead to have sex, one or the other. But I was just realizing, you know, it’s like I can feel that.
kind of bitchiness coming out in me. You know, I just, feel cranky and I feel disconnected. And I feel like, yeah, I don’t like this. I don’t like this. It’s been too long.
George (01:36.59)
I’m sorry to hear that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:38.204)
That’s you got for me?
George (01:42.062)
I think it’s a good example for our listeners to see when we talk about a reframe, a reframe is trying to meet people where they’re at, but expand their perspective to see a bigger picture and some of the influences they might not see in a tunnel vision of their own kind of struggle.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:01.146)
Mm-hmm.
George (02:02.626)
Right? So we talk a lot here about the emotional and the sexual cycle and interplay between the two of them. Right? So if I was watching an interaction of you being a bit grumpy with Derek, because you’re talking about something in the emotional cycle, you know, it’s so easy to miss that some of this grumpiness is not just what’s happening in the emotional cycle. It’s like you’re running on empty because you have depleted in the sexual cycle. And that’s the reframe is trying to kind of understand
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:14.266)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:18.725)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:28.08)
That’s right.
George (02:31.66)
How does the cycle we’re not working with, the shadow of that, the influence of that actually impacting what’s happening in the emotional cycle that you’re talking about now?
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:42.414)
Yeah. And I think it’s, you know, talking with you, talking with, you know, a therapist and just realizing how, how concrete I feel sexuality is for me in terms of feeling loved. It’s like, I realize that words for me in my childhood were kind of meaningless because they could get twisted up in my family of origin, like words.
It wasn’t just promises, but meaning and all that kind of stuff. could be very twisted up. So it wasn’t something that I could depend on as a kid, that it was straightforward. Somebody loved you. Somebody was concerned about you. It always took a different turn, a left turn. Even today, I had a, I sort of was.
talking about my grandchild to my brother and he said something just like really weird. And I was like, wow, it’s just like a right turn. And I don’t know, I can’t, I don’t even wanna clarify with him if he was actually being supportive or not because our family tradition is that exploring those kinds of things doesn’t go anywhere. And I just realized for me in the emotional cycle, being told that I’m loved,
is not as sure a thing as making love.
George (04:12.824)
So let’s stay with that because that for a lot of emotion withdrawers, the reason why they don’t want to do it is they’ve been let down. It hasn’t worked so well for them. Right. It would make sense as you’re even talking about, at any point we can make a left turn and we go away from what I’m interested in and we go somewhere totally else. get dropped. It doesn’t feel good. You know, and when that happens, we can learn to push and try to influence or we can learn to just not need so much anymore. And I think that’s what I’m trying to highlight here. It’s like,
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:18.62)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:22.255)
Right, right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:34.48)
Right.
Right? Yeah.
George (04:42.764)
When you get let down constantly emotionally, it makes sense why you want to withdraw, you know, and maybe you find connection then through touch, you know, through that, that becomes a more predictable, safer way for you to find connection. So when you start to lose that too, right now, now you’re, you’re, you’re in trouble. Right. So I like that you’re helping. I’m trying to think about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:49.808)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:53.562)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:59.804)
Sure.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:07.024)
Yeah.
George (05:13.014)
If I was your couple’s therapist and I was just watching you and Derek having a fight over maybe one of the grandkids because you have different parenting, you know, styles or whatever else is right. And I wouldn’t be missing though. Some of that grumpiness from you is actually outside of this fight about the grandkids.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:22.914)
my gosh, yes, we do.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:35.864)
It is, it is. And if you didn’t ask me about, you know, how were things going in the bedroom, it would never come out. And I would say, you know, this is certainly a therapeutic failure that many therapists make, but just in our couple relationships, the awareness of like, okay, I’m not feeling connected because we’re not having enough sex.
George (05:45.485)
never come out.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:06.154)
It’s a difficult thing, I think, as a sexual pursuer to bring that up. You know, like, how do I say again, you know, I need more sex in order to feel connected to you because then that’s the push. You know, I’m feeling alone, I’m feeling out of gas, you know, we haven’t had sex lately. And I think, I think for me, like just that old pattern of saying that.
I’m loathe to go to that, to say it again. Because really the change I want is the awareness that we haven’t had sex enough. Of course that’s going to impact me.
George (06:54.168)
Yeah, and I’m sure at some level Derek picks up on that too, but we’re just trying to make that explicit. It’s not just about the fight about the grandkids, right? There’s a bigger picture happening here that’s also important. And I don’t necessarily mean we have to talk about the sex piece, but I want to be curious to, know, what is it like to be running on empty and then be asked to emotionally engage?
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:04.887)
It’s not.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:12.432)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:20.72)
Mm-hmm.
George (07:21.314)
Like what is that like for you? Do you feel you have less resources? Do you feel like when you’re irritated, like I want to know about that irritation, not just sexually, but how it shows up in this emotional conversation.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:35.888)
Yeah, I think that, you know, I’m also an emotional pursuer. So I have a parallel map, right? I’m both. So I like to engage emotionally, but I also find that I have less patience. I mean, for me, it’s more about being less patient emotionally, you know, for his points for we we did have a conversation about the grandkids and
You know, he says, you on the one hand, my desire to help the children during this transition perhaps infantilizes them, like doesn’t send a message that we think they’re competent as young parents. And I say, look it, it gives them security to have, you know, a cushion right now and it gives them more time and.
space to connect with their children, which secures our grandchildren. So we have this argument. But I don’t have any patience inside for his side of it. I I actually got a good night’s sleep and then came back to him and was able to have some patience. But I can feel that irritability is, you’re right, it’s an underlying, like, just, there isn’t that same sort of free flow.
George (09:00.942)
So when you have less patience, it kind of exacerbates your defensiveness in that emotional cycle. And your go-to move in the emotional cycle is to want to protest, is to want to point out how his way is, he’s not seeing it the right way, so he can do it differently. So it just, it speeds that up, it exacerbates that a bit.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:14.341)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:17.893)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:23.096)
It does, it does. And maybe the way I say it is shorter. It’s not as calm, it’s not as like vulnerable really. It’s like I wanna make a point versus like look at, maybe my vulnerability is like we didn’t have any help honey.
as young parents, we didn’t have any help. We would have given our eye teeth to have a parent come in and make meals and hang with us and be with us. It’s like, there’s all kinds of things inside that are more vulnerable. But yeah, I think when I’m running on empty sexually, I do present less vulnerably emotionally.
George (10:15.902)
And I mean, in your emotional cycle, you’re hoping he’s gonna engage with you there to see the beauty of what you’re doing and trying to give. You didn’t get the help, right? So when he’s not seeing that and he’s telling you, you might be actually doing, making things worse. I mean, your brain just wants to scream because it’s not being seen again. There’s a feeling of being dropped.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:24.464)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:36.624)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:41.678)
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think too, like our old cycles about how the distribution of childcare and housework and stuff like that. mean, my husband does so much stuff for me now, but earlier in our life, I was still working full time and doing most of the household work and the childcare full time because
I grew up in a generation where that was a woman’s role. So I was trying to bridge both places and I often felt dropped, like he didn’t see that. So that stuff is coming up in my emotional cycle. And maybe it’s just, these are developmental stages, I think, when you become grandparents where there is a second opportunity to heal old wounds.
So we got our emotional cycle going, now we got our sexual cycle going. my God.
George (11:42.531)
Yeah. Again, I think this is so helpful. just that’s what a reframe is. It’s seeing the biggest picture and you obviously got to work on both of them, but we’re trying to stay on mission. I mean, what would be most helpful for you in this moment to kind of see how you’re being kind of dropped and what you’re looking for or to kind of segue into another mission and go into the sexual cycle and say, hey, listen, I’m running on empty there, which is making a lot harder for me to be flexible in this one.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:10.32)
I think that my experience after making love is I just kind of feel softer and gooey, you know, like connected. And so I think it’s probably more primary that we would, you know, resolve that first. And that gives me, me especially the space to
be less pointed maybe in my emotional issues.
George (12:48.184)
But it also does feel really important to me to say, you like you said, this is a do-over, a second chance. It really is a big deal that this part of you that’s trying to step up to heal something inside of you is in minimizing drought. If we just go to the sexual piece and we don’t address that, you’re still gonna be left alone in that place.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:00.496)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:11.14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, so can you fix it all at once? We got to come back on a break here, buddy. Okay, come back and fix me.
George (13:18.178)
Yeah.
George (13:25.506)
I think this is a new concept for us, really trying to think about how both of these are up and running at the same time and which one are you working with? And I think traditionally, I would just stay focused on like the emotional conversation. Like a lot of therapists, I would have missed some of that crankiness was also from you being dropped sexually. And I would have just stayed focused on this emotional piece.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:44.228)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And can I just say that, you know, I’ve been in gobs of marital therapy and, you know, many therapists don’t imagine that the woman is the sexual pursuer. They see her emotional crankiness and they want to work there and they have no sense that underneath it is a sense of being out of gas and depleted sexually, unconnected sexually. So they don’t check.
They don’t ever check in on the sexual cycle. I have sat with lots of therapists in my life, trust me, that would have never asked.
George (14:23.423)
and
George (14:30.494)
I definitely agree that that happens all the time when we get dropped if there are sexual pursuers. And I think a lot of men who are sexual pursuers, but they’re in the emotional cycle and they’re being impacted in the emotional cycle because they’re running on empty sexually and nobody’s talking about it. They’re being asked by the men, what’s that?
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:35.226)
Yeah, absolutely.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:42.32)
but emotional with drawers.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:51.438)
Yeah, yeah, I just happen to be a good example. I just happen to be a good example of the pursuer frustration in both cycles. Yeah.
George (15:01.58)
Yeah. And it’s, these are new ideas. So we don’t have all the answers to understand like where to best help Laurie in this moment where she needs help in both cycles, right? The trigger looks like it’s around the grandkids, you know, and there’s something important happening when you’re excited and you’re not met there.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:09.414)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:15.302)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:23.728)
Mm-hmm.
George (15:24.596)
And it’s coming at the same time when you’re sexually running on empty too. this is why it’s dark when you have both of them kind of being hit at the same time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:28.081)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:33.594)
Right, exactly. When you are a double pursuer in a parallel map, right, where you’re the same push in both cycles or the same withdraw, because I imagine my husband too. You know, as I am speaking, I’m becoming aware of some of his stressors outside of the relationship and what he’s also going through in life and how I know in the past
similar stressors have caused him to withdraw a little bit more. I will say he’s the most delighted grandfather in the world and the most present, like with the children. And he speaks about the way that he’s able to do that, like his second chance. I think the first time around he felt more pressure to make a living, to go to work, all that.
second time he’s present.
George (16:31.072)
And it’s also to be said about, he had to learn to be independent and to be resilient, to take care of yourself. And we need to do that in this world. So he’s trying to stand up for that side of the grandkids. Don’t make it too easy. Meet all their needs. They got to learn to kind of struggle through some things, right? And there’s wisdom to that, but not when you’re hoping to be seen for, you know, stepping up in a way you, you you’re, you’re touching a part of yourself that you couldn’t touch as a mom.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:40.198)
Yeah.
George (17:00.876)
You have the freedom to engage on their level. And I mean, it’s quite beautiful. I just think the timing of your advice is off target for what you’re needing emotionally.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:00.954)
Yeah, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:07.068)
Thank you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:13.764)
Yeah, yeah, true.
True.
George (17:17.696)
And again, you’re the mission because you’re the one getting your feelings hurt. Then we’re trying to center the conversation on that. If he’s the one coming in saying, Hey, George, you know, I really feel, you know, the kids are being turned into babies. Like then he, we try to understand what’s going on for him for really good reasons. You know, we turn it out to caregiving system. Like in these fights, both of them go offline. Both of you, neither one of you get help with what you’re struggling with.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:36.592)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (17:45.09)
And then we have the cycle on top of it, adding fire, you know, fuel to the fire. So, woof, wonder why I fight.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:45.22)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:50.972)
Yeah. Okay, so let’s do a role play. Let’s figure this out. How am I going to go home and talk to my husband about this?
George (18:11.426)
Well, I think it’s you at least the reframe is you’re presenting the bigger picture to your husband. Right. You’re you’re you’re he’s probably not seeing the sexual influence. So you’re just trying to figure out how do I how do I let you know that you’re feeling dropped in two areas and it’s not you’re not trying to criticize him. You just want him to be able to understand why you’re struggling right now.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:17.681)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:35.452)
Give me an example. You do it.
George (18:41.474)
Well, you say something like, you know, we’re in our cycle again. I mean, I know you’re defensive and you’re feeling you’re going to be criticized. I’m feeling rejected. Like we’re both feeling that way again. And, know, I’m trying to have a conversation and start stepping out of that, you know? So where do you want to start? You want to start talking about what’s going on for you? So I could have tried to understand that better and make you feel a bit safer. Do you want to do that for me first?
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:55.12)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:59.322)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:09.486)
Mm-hmm. I like that because it gives credence to sort of a sense that there is something going on in his world, too, that I might not be privy to, that we haven’t talked about. And again, right, he’s more receptive emotionally. He doesn’t necessarily volunteer inner conflict. Maybe waits to be asked or doesn’t expect to be asked or doesn’t even think about it until he’s asked.
you know, like to figure it out. So I love that as an invitation, like, do you want to tell me what’s in your heart these days, what’s happening for you? Your perspective on the cycle, because he certainly feels some of the tension, right?
George (19:57.327)
Yeah, I think it’s so important when couples learn to pick their mission, you know, that’s an invitation saying you, you could have one or two roles. You want to try to listen to me? I’m not trying to beat you up so I can feel more understood. Or do you want to let me in and I’ll try to understand you. I’ll go either direction with you, right? That’s an invitation to him.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:10.63)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. Good. Then where would you… Let’s say he goes first and talks about his stressors. And then, of course, you know, that deepens the intimacy right there, right? Because while we’re not… I mean, then we’re talking about emotionally intimate things. So that feels good regardless of…
George (20:42.99)
Well, you still have to make the transition, which could be difficult because you’re coming focus. You want to talk about what’s going on with you. And now all of a sudden you got to put you aside and try to focus on him. Which sometimes it’s hard to do, but you know, that’s something you’re good at. you’re, you’ve learned that if he’s willing to take a risk and be vulnerable, that’s a pretty important thing to do. So you’re able to put your stuff aside while he does that, which is great. Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:43.707)
The content.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:54.172)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:04.7)
yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:08.046)
I think I can do that. Yeah. Yeah, I have space to do that.
George (21:13.132)
All right, so let’s say you did that and he feels a little bit better because you’re understanding that, you know, he’s learned a way of surviving that he wants his grandkids to learn. Right. And his fear is that they’ll, you know, get so used to other people doing it for them that they won’t be as resilient and independent as they need to be.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:18.491)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:23.536)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:33.786)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (21:36.27)
So when you honor that inside of him, he feels more seen. He’s not trying to be a jerk. He’s not trying to hurt your feelings. He’s just trying to make space for his truth. And you’re able to acknowledge that you’re able to say, I get that, you know, when I’m cranky, I don’t really see that. But yeah, I’m glad you bring that balance in these moments.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:42.934)
Mm-hmm. Right. Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:52.39)
Mm-hmm.
And I do. I think it is, like even as we talk about it, I do think there’s something to affirming. It’s actually not my grandkids, but my kids, know, affirming their competence. Like you can do this, you know? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I have accepted his…
George (22:12.11)
All right, so now we switch the position.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:19.994)
points in the emotional cycle and what he feels and where it comes from and I’ve affirmed that it’s good. So we have a little more safety.
George (22:27.896)
Yeah. And now he’s willing to switch and put on his caregiving hat and say, right, so let me understand kind of what’s going on for you.
And again, this is the challenging part because it’s not just around the grandkids, it’s also around the sex. So I think you got to pick which one of them you want to lead with.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:46.629)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And if, you know.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:57.445)
I, when there’s two cycles that are depleted, it’s a difficult choice.
George (23:07.872)
If I was your therapist, would probably try to direct you into the emotional in this moment because he just sent it the emotional.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:13.23)
Yeah, he just, a, right, that’s exactly what I was thinking is probably I would pick the emotional cycle because he just spoke about emotional things. So it makes sense for us to resolve that cycle first, you know, like to, okay, this is your side of the emotional cycle. This is my side of the emotional cycle. Okay. But you’re a sexual pursuer. And I know that you say the same sort of thing that if it’s been too long, you get cranky.
So where do you bring that up? Because this is now a long conversation. I think that, like, withdrawers don’t have as much stamina for these multiple layered conversations as pursuers do.
George (23:58.615)
Yeah, but I do think in the front end, naming that, you know, so if you could say something like, hey, thank you.
You know, I want to talk about what happens to me, you know, in this conversation around the grandkids. But I’m also noticing, you know, as I’m settling down, that it’s not just that, you know, what’s happening for us, because we’re so exhausted, not having sex is also at play here. And, maybe we’ll talk about that later, but I just want to acknowledge that because that is some of the, think, why I’m not as flexible as I normally am in some of these conversations.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:13.03)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:33.998)
I like that. you bring it up as, as not a whole conversation about it. You know, not about our cycle, not about our history, just putting in there, I’m not as flexible because we’re not having as much sex and
George (24:41.955)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:53.18)
It’s really showing how the sexual cycle is impacting my flexibility in the emotional cycle, just bringing his awareness to it that perhaps my crankiness is due to my sort of out of gas sexually. But it’s really not a discussion about the sexual cycle. It’s not about, I want you to notice that we haven’t had much sex and then you take responsibility for initiating more. It’s just…
George (25:10.541)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:22.382)
a touch to that. And I think that that’s good strategy, George. I think we, know, that this, this is enough for one conversation, because I think what people do is they throw too much on the table. It’s a whole bowl of spaghetti. We’re trying to figure out the beginning and the end and my God, you know, we can’t go anywhere. So, okay. So, okay. I have my strategy now to resolve my problems. Thank you, George Fowler.
George (25:47.057)
my. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:52.21)
and I’m going to go home and have these conversations.
George (25:53.135)
I just want to do a shout out to, because again, I think a lot of times this happens in the reverse. You know, if imagine my wife who is, we’re feeling disconnected. She is the emotional pursuer and we’re, we’re not having a lot of time on traveling too much. We’re not really feeling connected. And then all of a sudden I come home and I want to have sex. Right? So like what is happening to her?
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:05.945)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:13.169)
Mm-hmm.
George (26:21.462)
any emotional cycle, not feeling connected really impacts her ability to be present sexually, the distance. know, so we, a lot of times we do understand that, but it’s the same theory applies. Like how do we stay focused on the sexual cycle, right? What is it like to have sex when you’re disconnected instead of just always going off into the other cycle to talk about, you know, the emotional distance it’s influencing, but we got to pick which one of them we’re talking about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:28.215)
yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:38.522)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:49.808)
Yeah, I mean, it’s no good, no good to have sex when you’re disconnected, you know, but also when you use sex to get connected, you know, so that you can become more present emotionally, you know, yeah, you’ve been away, you’ve been traveling, but you’re also not having sex.
not being connected with her in the way that you feel maybe a quick phone call here and there between and after sessions, right? That’s not time enough to really connect emotionally. And then your hope is you want to get connected sexually when you come home. I totally get, I get it really from both sides, actually, I think. Okay, well, I hope that was helpful to you all. It was helpful to me. Thanks for listening.
George (27:47.544)
Keep it hot, y’all.
