In today’s episode, our hosts answer a listener’s mailbag question. If the sex is good, why don’t I want it more? Join George and Laurie as they help our listener answer this question and explore possible reasons behind this dilemma. Perhaps it’s dissatisfaction, difference in desire, asexuality or emotional and sexual blocks. There are many avenues to consider and we approach the topic with lots of curiosity.
We thank our listeners for being brave to send in these important mailbag questions and remind them that they are not alone in their struggles. Let us know what you learn from today’s episode and don’t hesitate to send us your very own mailbag question! We are here to help our audience and want you to always keep it hot y’all!
Check out this episode’s sponsor:
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s long-time favorite personal lubricant! Check it out!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:02.652)
Okay, mailbag, we’ve got a Q &A and we would just love to answer all your questions. Please send us emails. We will read your scenario. We will guard your privacy if that’s what you prefer. So let it rip. Tell us who we’ve got today.
George (00:19.47)
All right, let’s do it.
Do I want to give a name or no? All right.
All right, so we got a letter from Jenny asking a sexual question. She writes, I’m married to a man. I’ve never had much sex drive or ever really feel horny. On a rare occasion, I’m thinking about sex, but I’d rather masturbate alone than be with my husband.
Also, anytime I or we finish, I never have the thought that that was amazing or really so worth it. My thoughts are more like, that’s it. Whereas my husband responds with, why don’t we do this every night? I can orgasm usually with the assistance of a vibrator and then do enjoy it once we get going. But I never have the desire to do it, to initiate it, or I never finished feeling like it was what it seems to be for everyone else.
My husband is great and really strives to be a team player with whatever it takes from me. Any insight or advice with this?
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:32.894)
Hmm.
So we’re talking about kind of a true sexual withdraw, somebody who, who both doesn’t subjectively experience a lot of desire, as well as kind of a more avoidant sexual style, right? Somebody who as that sexual withdraw keeps those feelings to themselves to herself, and doesn’t feel as comfortable sharing that being that vulnerable and
And I kind of think that there’s reasons people get to be like this and there are probably solutions, I think.
George (02:15.372)
Yeah, mean, this we need a lot more information. We appreciate her reaching out because it’s it’s tough when you put on TV and everybody seems to have these magical moments and you can’t really find those moments. And you have a partner who’s willing to do different things. But it sounds like, you know, there’s a lot of disappointment with her own sexuality. And she’s trying to just understand that. I don’t know if we talk about it, but, know, there’s a spectrum of being asexual. And some people have more desire as others
Do you want to say anything about asexual in a spectrum,
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:51.496)
Yeah, I mean, I think there are some people and the research is kind of leaning toward that it’s really a sexual orientation about being asexual, that they just have no desire to be sexual with a partner, anyone ever. However, they often feel romantic attraction where they want to have intimate, close relationships with somebody that they’re in love with.
sex is kind of off the table. And I think it’s a really big topic. I don’t think yet there’s enough research on it in terms of what that means. And of course, the difficulty that we see in practice is if that awakening about who you are occurs when you’re already in a relationship that was assumed to be sexual, then of course it’s a big breach and difficult for both people to manage that. But I don’t think this is what she’s saying.
because she is saying I do have some drive and I do masturbate. Yeah. Throw that out there.
George (03:54.35)
Yeah, just a father listener is just, and if you do identify, I think there’s such stigma around being asexual, have lower desire, you’re identified as the problem and that pressure is not going to help and it’s only going to kind of probably exacerbate things. So, you know, just recognize, and there are a lot of different ways bodies show up in this space and, you know, there is no right way or wrong way, just trying to start off with that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:23.374)
Exactly. Exactly. No, I think it’s, it’s, it’s really good clarification because people do wonder, you know, when I’m a sexual withdraw and I don’t want to be with my partner, just is that what it means? And I mean, we haven’t been able to explore enough with this woman to know exactly, but I’m leaning toward that it’s more of an avoidant sexual issue, like that she finds it okay to be by herself, doesn’t have a lot of spontaneous desire.
but has difficulty in that intimate space with her partner. And I would imagine, George, if I were this woman, and maybe this is not true, but there might be a little bit of envy, right? Like the whole world is having this fabulous experience. My husband is having this fabulous experience. And I’m like, you know, You know, like what’s the big deal?
George (04:58.188)
Right.
George (05:07.894)
Yeah.
George (05:15.361)
Yeah, whenever we get a listener who reaches out, we just use that loosely to talk about all of us. We’re all in scenarios or have family members like this. We’re not really specific on this case. you know, don’t think we mean this.
to you who reached out to us, but you know, I agree that that regret or that FOMO that says, wait a second. see the world, know, having this amazing experience that I don’t have. And that’s a beautiful sign of strength saying like, want it. What am I doing wrong? Please somebody give me something. I can get more from this experience. Like, I think that’s a really healthy thing to kind of want something different, but I agree from the little we’re hearing that there does seem to be a lack of engagement.
Right. And whenever there’s a lack of engagement, we want to understand where, where we blocked it. You know, when you’re alone, masturbating, when would your partner, like, what do you think about, do you feel closely connected? Does your heart feel open? You know, is your erotic mind online or you spend, there’s so many elements that can be brought into the bedroom. Like, have you tried any of those? Again, that’s why I’d want some feedback.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:59.358)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:23.294)
Yeah, I think that that’s one place to listen to, right? Inside is the fantasy, like when you’re masturbating by yourself, is it, do you think about an other or do you think about a memory or do you think about, is it just physical sensation that you’re kind of trying to get there as fast as you can, maybe using a vibrator, focusing on the stimulation? It is curious because, you know,
One of the things that happens when we’re growing up is all children masturbate. Once we hit puberty, everybody masturbates or most everybody does. The fantasies change by and large. In the beginning, children masturbate for strictly sensation reasons. They’re not really masturbating to be sexual. It doesn’t even compute that way. It’s sensory.
But in adolescence, they start to fantasize about sharing this with another. They start to long for, fantasize about, and desire another person.
And masturbation is part of the force that pushes them out into the world to seek a romantic partner. I mean, it’s developmentally appropriate. so, you know, potentially one of the reasons we feel safe about seeking a romantic partner and a sexual partner is because we come from security in our childhood and in our family of origin.
And sometimes we don’t and we’ve learned independence is really the safest way to be. And these longings that I have in my body, they’re so intimate that I couldn’t even imagine depending on somebody else to meet those needs or asking for it or letting them in on it. It’s just, it’s too much. And some of that I think comes from how they were raised. Maybe there just wasn’t enough
George (07:58.809)
you
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:29.394)
when they were growing up, not sexual touch, certainly, but I mean just affection in their family where touch becomes very safe, natural to need it, natural to give it. And so they kind of grow up what I call touch anorexic and it converts then, you know, later on as sexually anorexic. They don’t need sexual intimacy. Doesn’t mean that they don’t have drive inside occasionally, but
George (08:58.839)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:59.474)
but the anorexia is about being with the other.
George (09:03.79)
Yeah, I like the term neglect, right? If you don’t get the responsiveness needed to develop the neural pathways in your brain, you just don’t have the neural pathways to access, right? And it’s nobody’s fault. If you don’t get a lot of touch, you don’t get a lot of examples of emotional intimacy on top of that, you’re going to have more avoiding strategy in both ways. But I’d like to turn this around and play with this a little bit because we talked about this in another podcast, but I’d like to read this same
email, but read it as a guy talking about emotional vulnerability with the same exact words. All right. So I’ve never had much of a drive to be vulnerable on rare occasions. You know, I’ll talk about my feelings, but it never feels like it’s that big of a deal. And when we do have an emotional conversation, when we finish, I never really think it’s worth it. I, know, my thoughts are usually like, that’s it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:40.754)
Okay, let’s do it.
George (10:02.678)
Whereas, you know, my partner’s response is, should do this every night. I can do vulnerability if I need to, usually with some kind of assistance, if I’m reading a book or watching a movie, but I never get to the point where, you know, I feel like I’m getting what everyone else seems to be getting out of this vulnerability. My partner is great and is an awesome team player. Any insight or advice on this?
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:28.798)
So powerful to read it that way, to build compassion for this person if you are sort of maybe more of an emotional withdrawal, but a sexual pursuer, right? That you feel love sexually and can’t imagine somebody who doesn’t get off on it. And then here you’ve turned it around and you’ve read it the other way and it’s like, but I think for me, George, as a sexual pursuer and an emotional
Pursuer, my kind of pity comes online for both of these readings because I find so much life in deep emotional conversations and in…
deep sexual connection. I mean, to me, it’s like what Mike Moran says. He’s an EFT supervisor and a trainer in sexuality and EFT. And he says, libido is chi. It’s the life force. We’re not just talking about a sex act when we talk about libido. It’s like a longing for life, and that includes a longing for sensuality, color, eroticism, connection.
And in both of the readings, as you put it to me, there’s something just kind of, personally, I find it a little sad that there’s not that, wow, especially after having had the experience, there’s not a, okay, I hunger now.
George (12:01.41)
The good news is when people usually experience neglect, they resign themselves that that’s what it is. They don’t do what this lady did, reaching out, asking for help. And our experience, if you’re asking for help, if you’re searching, you’re going to find answers and things will improve if you open yourself to that. What I like as you’re talking about Chi, because even when we talk about the sexual cycle, it gets so limited. know, people think about sex, their brains go in a tunnel vision way. Like when you look at children, you know, that how that sexual system develops,
It is just the pleasure that comes from touch and physicality and interaction. Like there’s so much to it that shapes non cognitive learning how the body finds itself in space and takes pleasure. it’s like, if we don’t get that, of course it’s harder when we’re older to know what to do in those places.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:49.118)
Okay, let’s come back and I want to talk about that.
This morning, speaking of the neglect, this morning I picked up my grandchild to take to school. And when I greeted him, he just laid his head on my shoulder and hugged me and just wanted to be held there for just a minute, just a tiny little bit. But it was like, he was so happy to see me. He had been waiting for me. And then he wanted that connection. And when we walked into school together, he held onto my hand. And he wasn’t quite ready for me to let go or for him
let go of my finger to even hang up his backpack. couldn’t quite manage it all.
And it was like, you know, the safety, the sense of deep connection, the pleasure that he had, all of that was evident in just, you know, 15 minutes of being with him this morning. And I think that what happens for kids who are neglected, both emotionally and physically in their childhood, is they don’t experience, like you said, a brain pathway that says this leads to safety.
George (13:41.409)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:03.194)
and pleasure. know, that touches feel so good, makes me feel so good on the inside. It’s like my heart was bursting when he laid his head on my shoulder. And I think his heart was bursting. was like this resonance between us and the not letting go. It wasn’t clinging, but it was just like, this is how I come into my classroom and feel safe. This is how I enter the world knowing that I have a safe base to spring from, you know. And I just think of the many things
George (14:04.492)
Mm-hmm.
George (14:31.626)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:33.034)
that are missing if we come from a childhood that didn’t provide that as a pattern.
George (14:42.09)
It’s so important to emphasize.
this pre verbal learning. Like he’s learning to chase touch. He’s learning that when he acts on that impulse, like I want to squeeze her hand tighter because I want her to respond back to me tighter. You know, I want to walk away from her and look back and to see that I’m pulling her after me. Cause she’s following me. You know, wait, I just saw a new kid. got nervous. I back up and she kind of wraps around me. I mean, this is such incredible learning that’s happening. There’s no
shortcut to these experiences of sensation that’s it’s just a different part of the brain that’s developing. You know, and again, if you didn’t get that, because for good reasons, your parents might not have gotten again. We’re not here to critique or blame people. We’re just trying to say, hey, listen, it’s like a language. If you didn’t get it, it’s not your fault. What so hurts my feelings is people who can’t do it emotionally or sexually think there’s something broken in them when it’s just the language that they were taught.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:44.358)
Yeah. Or that they’re bad for not being able to do that. Right? I mean, I think that there is something, I wouldn’t say it’s broken, I would say that it could be a lot better. Life could be a lot fuller. Right? The pattern that says I need to be completely independent.
doesn’t lead to as much pleasure in life, either sexually or in connection with people. It might lead to a very successful life because these people still are smart and have the ability to be driven, but they don’t have the richness of the connection, which we know every person actually underneath their defenses does need.
Hyperindependence is kind of a defense that protects them from being dropped like they were dropped when they were kids.
George (16:39.544)
richness is a great, great word. And that’s what she’s asking for. She’s saying, see it described with all this richness and color. It’s not my experience. Right. And, and I, that’s why I also find it helpful when we, when you talk about looking for glimmers, looking for little exceptions, little sparks, little doses of color, where something starts to come online. I mean, we are made to want this connection. Right. So if you find yourself emotionally or sexually not wanting
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:05.682)
We are.
George (17:09.488)
it. I mean, it’s okay to be responsive, but if you want to grow yourself, you got to find areas where, you know, something you want, something starts to come online a little bit looking for those little glimmers. So I think there are plenty of examples in even the description of email, you know, when I’m masturbating, when I’m with my partner, you know, things are happening. How do we kind of grow those glimmers in her experiences?
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:36.943)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I have found talking with so many women that this piece does grow. I mean, I think that’s how my career started, was talking with women who didn’t want sex and had sexual experiences that were not rich or came from backgrounds where they didn’t have as much capacity. And that capacity can be built where they can find more joy, more color in the world around sex. And I think the same thing
Absolutely, right? EFT is oriented currently toward helping people who are emotionally don’t have language for it, don’t know themselves, become sort of more self-aware so that they can communicate better, take in the love from their partner better, and they can be richer emotionally. I mean, we prove that every single day with EFT for the emotional experience.
George (18:33.388)
and she’s 36 years old. So just looking developmentally, right? I think there’s a…
pivoting the road here as women reach their 40s. It’s like, do they just resign themselves? Because in your 30s, you’re barely surviving with kids and work and everything else and pressure and stress. It’s like, it might be hard to have this rich sex life. But I think there’s a second chance for a lot of women. Once you head towards empty nesting or you get more time, do I want to actually, there’s less inhibitions. I mean, I see so many women
find it in their 40s something they didn’t have in their 30s or you can go the other direction which is just not want sex anymore just resign yourself you know it’s not only not gonna get better it’s probably gonna get worse so what’s the big deal and I don’t need this anymore would you agree with that like it goes two directions
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:29.514)
I mean, certainly she could give up, right? She could say, is who I am. I listen to people all the time who say that in therapy. I am who I am. You know, it’s the Popeye phrase. Like without sort of a larger vision of who they could be, how life could be. And so there is this collapsing and contracting of the soul, if you will, when people get very focused and set on this is who I am and that’s it.
But we, think as therapists, we specialize in helping people expand. Certainly as a sex therapist, I help them expand sexually. And as a couples therapist, we’re helping them expand their emotional experience with each other and with themselves.
You know, so yeah, I mean, it could go one of two ways. We’re just hoping that Jenny, you don’t give up. We’re saying this is really great that you wrote us. It shows your willingness to examine this. And we think that there’s a lot of room here for healing, expansion, more richness in your life sexually.
George (20:38.542)
I like to look at it as like dancing. Maybe most of my life I haven’t danced and too conscientious and, know, but as you get older, you start recognizing people really don’t care. Right. And, and, and then you’re still dancing could be performative and you’re doing it because you know, you’re at a wedding and whatever else, but like, when you could get yourself where you like dance alone, because you just want to do it. Like you just want to let your body go and you don’t have to judge yourself. You just can kind of be present in that space.
You know, how do we do something similar sexually just to kind of let ourselves go to not have so much pressure we put on ourselves You know, we we’re made to dance We’re made to be physical
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:21.138)
Beautiful, beautiful, yes. And what you’re saying is how could we sort of take away one of the forces, right, inhibition from emotional expression or sexual expression to allow somebody to just dance and get out there and do it. One of the things I’ve done in the past with people who are an orgasmic, people who don’t have orgasms or they’re afraid of going over the edge into the abyss of not knowing what an orgasm feels like is I have them practice
just kind of screaming and moaning and writhing and just like make it up. Imagine what it’s like because some of what keeps them from going over is this inhibition. I’ll look weird. You know, my partner will see this like primitive, like abandoned place and I don’t even know what that’s gonna look like and I’m afraid it won’t look attractive or, you know, appealing.
So I have them kind of practice abandoning themselves into sort of an uninhibited state. It’s very much what you said, like what would it be like to turn on the music and just dance by yourself? Nobody’s watching.
George (22:31.668)
watching. How do we get back in touch with our native language? This is our native language, is physicality. It is touch. It’s what babies learn first, right? Which is why both of us feel really sad when we don’t get the touch or we don’t get that emotional kind of co-regulation in places of struggle. Like if we don’t get it,
It’s predictable that we’re not going to develop the pathways that want more of it. it’s just, you know, I always go to a different country. People love these foods that I taste. I’m like, my God, how can anybody eat this? Well, if you grow up, that’s amazing. You know, just like the foods I love, somebody came from a different part of the world. They’re like, how do you eat this garbage? So, you know, we’re a byproduct of so much of our experience. Avogadroosh, there you go.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:18.428)
Baba Ghanoush, Baba Ghanoush, mushed up eggplant.
George (23:25.174)
Hey to each their own.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:25.864)
George’s favorite. Yeah. No, you’re right. It’s like, how do we enjoy something that we haven’t tasted? And this is the challenge is how do we enjoy connection when we haven’t? Well, I guess they are saying they’ve tasted it a little bit, but how do we expand it so that they can have a fuller palette, right, to take in even more?
George (23:49.839)
palette has certainly changed. Foods that I hated 10 years ago, all of a sudden I’m like, this is some good stuff. Right? As you get more exposure to different things, before you know it, you start to expand. I love the word expansion. I love your word, climbers. I love your word, growth. I mean, it’s all, and it’s what she’s reaching for. In my experience, if you send an email like that, if you put out into the universe, I’m open. I want to do things a little bit differently. Give me some advice.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:18.844)
Yeah. Awesome. Beautiful. Jenny, thank you for trusting us with your thoughts and your letter. We appreciate it. We would love to hear from more of you and we will read them. We just keep it odd. No, wait, that’s not my line. Thanks for listening.
George (24:19.456)
You’re there.
George (24:41.72)
Keep it hot, y’all.
