In today’s episode, we are discussing life and relationships after an affair. Most often people think that relationships are over after an affair. However, that is not always the case and many couples can successfully repair their partnerships after this betrayal.
Join George and Laurie today as they breakdown affair recovery steps and what the betrayed partner and the partner that had the affair need to heal. We discuss the different types of affairs and the motives of pursuers and withdrawers alike. We want to instill hope for couples that are facing this challenge that relationships can heal and recover from affairs. It takes a lot of deep heart-centered work but couples that have made it to the otherside are often able to write a new chapter in their bond.
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:17.321)
Okay, affairs, George, we gotta talk about this because when this happens in a relationship, most people think it’s over, right? And they feel like, I gotta leave if I was cheated on or if somebody cheats, they’re like really in desperate straits thinking about this marriage may not be what I want and that’s why I did this. And I think we gotta ask and ask those questions, but we also gotta help people because I really believe that even after a betrayal,
George (00:51.438)
Complicated topic, Laurie. Let’s dive in.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:57.067)
Hey, we just want to thank all of our patrons for supporting us. We recently had a new patron come on at $20 a month. Thank you so much. we have some expenses. And you all, if you’re partnering with us and really wanting to share this mission with us, we appreciate you. And it is so helpful to us.
George (01:20.502)
Yes, it’s a Lori and I were talking about sometimes podcasting could be a discouraging job. You’re trying to chase hits and clicks and numbers and like it’s a popularity contest that, you sometimes I feel like I’m too old for, just want to, you know, chat and kind of try to help people out. And so we really do appreciate you making that process a little bit easier for us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:43.425)
Yeah, thank you. So let’s talk about like what happens in an affair, why it’s so painful and you know, what is an affair, I guess.
George (01:57.678)
Yeah, I mean, think it’s there’s so many types of affairs, right? There’s the chronic affair. There’s the urine love affair, the emotional connection is the massage parlor. There’s the quickie. There’s there’s just so many different forms that it could show itself on. But what they all are is a betrayal of trust right there. You’re breaking your commitment to somebody. You know, you’ve lied behind their back about something and that that really does change the world. It changes.
the dynamics of the relationship. just trying to start off with that, that it’s world turned upside down for a lot of people.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:38.325)
Right, we call it an attachment injury that because our partner is our attachment figure, right? Just like as children, our parents are attachment figures, we count on them. In marriage or, you know, the committed partnership, we count on that person. And when something changes in terms of our, the very fabric of what we believe is our agreement,
George (03:11.276)
And some people, it’s not a surprise. They kind of know it. It’s there’s a history of these things happening for other people. It’s like they’re blindsided. They never thought it could possibly happen. So there are all in different shapes and sizes affairs.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:24.437)
Yeah, and I think we’re talking about infidelity where there’s not an agreement, right? Like we’re not talking about an opening of the relationship where two people agree on that. We’re talking about one person unilaterally making the decision to somehow or another go outside the relationship, usually sexually. Although some people think intimate friendship with another…
George (03:48.802)
emotional affair.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:50.935)
person is an affair. And I can see that it’s a risk. But that’s a whole other topic. We should probably talk about that whole other topic sometime too. And unfortunately, 60 % of divorces say that an affair is a major factor in the reason for the divorce.
George (03:59.341)
Yeah.
George (04:10.135)
Well, that’s, I think that’s where we have to start. have to start trying to stabilize the betrayal. You know, can this person take ownership for breaking their vows for, for causing harm to their partner? Like that, that’s, that’s first base, right? I mean, if, if, somebody’s not willing to make amends to try to take ownership, then a fair recovery process is probably not.
There has to be motivation to kind of understand what you’ve done and to stop the behavior.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:45.621)
Right. And I think people have affairs for different reasons. Anxiously attached people, pursuers, often are seeking reassurance for their attractiveness, for their lovability. They kind of want that intensity. And it can be within the partnership a signal to their partner that I have some needs here that are not being met. It’s not necessarily wanting to leave
George (04:50.741)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:15.625)
the relationship. It’s like, I need these needs met and I can’t survive this way so I’m going to get them outside of the relationship. Whereas withdrawers are often having an affair to kind of escape pressure. Maybe they’re seeking adventure or they’re kind of numbing out stress. And sometimes they’re saying, I’m done. I think when a withdraw has an affair, sometimes it’s…
George (05:51.321)
Well, I think this is the tricky part of a fair work. It’s like, after you stabilize and you take some ownership, for me, part two is you got to help them see the bigger picture, right? That their relationship dynamics makes them more susceptible, less susceptible to these things happening, right? So yes, you’re a hundred percent right when your needs are not being met. When you’re in a negative cycle, this research is really clear. We are more at risk for an affair. You know, we are bonding creatures if our primary
you before you know it, start someone showing interest at work and it starts off with coffee and things can escalate. So like, do we get both partners to see that their negative cycle has really contributed to this? That’s not giving an excuse. Cause again, you got to take ownership for breaking your vows and betraying your partner. That’s where we’re starting. But at some point you got to look at your relationship dynamics and what needs to change about that.
to make it work better. mean, if you have secure attachment, you’re less likely to have an affair. If you have insecure attachment, you’re more likely to have an affair. so to me, that’s step two. Can I start getting the couple to see that bigger picture?
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:06.847)
Right, and a lot of our work is creating secure attachment between partners and that’s really the affair proofing that we want. That’s why we work in sexuality because sex is a big motive to have an affair. But I would, and we are saying, we are not saying that…
George (07:15.489)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:30.027)
the marriage is an excuse, whatever state the marriage is, is an excuse for one person to have an affair. That’s all on them. But an affair doesn’t happen in a vacuum, and there are many times that the relationship is difficult for many reasons. And so when a person steps out,
You know, they feel some sense of, can’t get my needs met here and I can’t communicate it effectively enough to get my needs met. Right.
George (08:02.668)
Yeah, part of the person who’s betrayed wants to know the why question. Why did you do this? And part of understanding that why question is to understand, you know, these needs that were met or not met or, you know, sometimes a partner has had the best marriage in the world and this is just was a selfish act. like, there’s less to see in that. But sometimes there’s more than that. So we do have to just face, you know, the relationship dynamics to learn.
What was working, let’s do more of it. What wasn’t working, how do we do that differently?
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:35.863)
Right. And I think this is a really hard one that what you just said is sometimes a person has an affair for their own kind of inner dynamic problems. know, a midlife crisis. can’t face that I’m aging and I want to prove that I still have that power, that prowess to attract the opposite sex because that’s what makes me feel safe. As long as I can get an attractive partner, I can
George (08:47.629)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:05.817)
have a supply of sex and excitement, that’s what makes me feel safe. So it’s really not about their partner. It’s about their own internal stuff. And I’m not saying that makes it right. I’m just saying that that is something to analyze. people have affairs. Dr. Scott Woolley is an EFT’s trainer who’s done a lot of research. And he categorizes affairs into three primary areas. And one is this intrasychic motive that
there’s something difficult the person is dealing with inside the self. The other is an escape affair. You know, I feel pressure at work. I feel pressure at home. know, life is dull. I had a client once who, you know, life was dull. And so he started flirting online. It wasn’t right. He should have managed life differently. But it was it was simply an escapism. You know, I want to use the
in a way that brings a hit of dopamine to ordinary moments in life. And sometimes people do have relational affairs where they fall in love with the other person, they’re having both emotional and sexual intimacy, and I think probably the most damaging and the most threatening to a partnership is when the affair is relational.
George (10:30.606)
And it’s difficult work, but there’s something important that we need to explore because a lot of times something comes online for that person. You know, if you think about two people in an affair, they get only 10 % at a time, but in that 10 % they’re giving each other a hundred percent levels of engagement and they both know they’re doing something wrong. So there’s usually a lot of vulnerability. There’s a lot of depth to, mean, it’s just a lot of powerful emotions. And then you go home and you have to numb out and lie and put up walls and
Like you got all this time with your partner at home, but there’s the levels of engagement are super low. You know, so that does something to our brain when you’re with one person with high levels of engagement and the other person with low levels of engagement. And again, this is not making excuses. It’s just trying to say, we need to understand, you know, what was the sex like with this other person? You know, it’s usually very different than the sex you were having with your partner at home.
Right. This is just information. think it’s a wise thing to gather information and the couple can decide what they want to do with that information.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:32.063)
Yeah, and I mean, clearly, we can’t do that in session one or in conversation one. Tell me about how great the sex was with your affair partner. It’s like, I’m bleeding. I don’t want to know that. I don’t want to know that you had better sex. And if you did, why didn’t you take me to a hotel and buy me lingerie and give me 100 % of your attention for 10 % of the day? It’s like, wonderful. And that is somewhat what I say to couples, George.
George (11:42.99)
Yeah, I’m dying.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:02.017)
If they took even a quarter of that energy, money, and time, and had been putting it into the marriage, would they have been as tempted by an affair?
You know, everybody tells me, we don’t have any time for each other. We don’t have any money to go out and do anything. You we can’t do this. And it’s like, suddenly their partner is having an affair and spending money and time with someone else and energy on somebody else. And it’s like, where’d you get all that? know?
George (12:33.332)
Right. They’re getting high levels of engagement, laughing at their jokes, kind of a lot of affection, a lot of affirmation, a lot of attention. mean, a lot of the things that they feel like they’re not getting. And again, this is the balance. That’s why we’re talking about four steps to this process, right? You have to stabilize first.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:42.185)
Attention. Right.
George (12:55.266)
There’s nothing to do. Like if I felt betrayed and my world’s turned upside down, I don’t want to hear any excuses about cycles and unmet needs. Right. I really need my partner. That’s, we’re not starting there. We need to pull that person who’s drowning out of the water and recognize what has happened is not okay. Right. then
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:03.253)
Right, right, that is not the moment.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:11.009)
Yeah. Right. The affair partner has to take ownership, complete ownership for their responsibility, and they have to be remorseful for the hurt that they’ve caused.
George (13:20.482)
Yeah. They have to be motivated to make amends and to make amends. They’re going to have to keep their focus on the pain of their partner. So often what we see is the affair partners, like, I’m sorry, I can’t change the past. Let’s just move on. Like that’s not cutting it. You’re not going to repair an affair by not talking about what happened, right? The person is betrayed needs to understand, and they need to have you, the betrayer, keep the focus on the person who’s hurt.
Right. But we’re not going to be able to usually get there until we can start seeing the bigger picture and help that person who’s been the betrayer kind of get more grounded too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:59.511)
Yeah, I think that the person who is involved in the affair oftentimes is carried away and they don’t actually know why they did this thing. And so some of it is exploring with them and having them sort of figure out, okay.
Is it inside me? Is it between me and my partner? Am I under stress in a way that I didn’t manage that well? Why are the reasons I’m having the affair? They have to figure that out. And secondarily, after the bleeding has been stemmed for a little bit, then we can kind of do step two, which is try to figure out the cycle and the history.
George (14:44.45)
That is not an acceptable answer to say, don’t know why I did it. I mean, that’s almost where everyone starts, but you owe it to yourself and your partner to have an answer to that question. How can you ever believe it’s not going to happen again if you don’t know what caused it in the first place?
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:01.515)
Right, then you’re infinitely vulnerable. OK, let’s come back and talk about this some more. Sorry, beat you to the punch. OK.
George (15:09.911)
Nice.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:14.495)
Okay, so we’re talking, George, that the person cannot just say, I don’t know why I did it, you know, because this person was so attractive because they, you there are deeper reasons that people act outside of their own moral ethic. You know.
George (15:26.094)
Yeah.
George (15:30.785)
And this could be the tricky part. This is the, I think the third part. You have to get the person who’s done the betrayed to be able to be re-engaged so they can give caregiving to their partner to really see their pain to walk in their shoes. But to do that, they kind of have to understand how they got to where they’re at. And that all might mean they might need some caregiving from their partner.
Right. Which is often tricky, right? If you betrayed me, the last thing I want to do is help you now in this place. So this, this is where sometimes therapy can feel a bit stuck because I have this betrayer who doesn’t know because they’ve avoided emotions their whole life and they’ve dealt with these failings and bad feelings and insecurities by running away, running towards something else. That’s just what they’ve done. And they’re starting to kind of, they need some kind of success with those feelings. If they’re going to learn to share those feelings.
You know, and this is where a lot of times the partners like, wait a second. I’m the one bleeding out here. Why am I trying to help you? So we could get a little bit stuck in that step three of this process, but, usually.
When you’re able to point out, Hey, this person right now is trying to do it differently. They’re trying to answer your question to why. And to do that, they have to face these parts of themselves that they don’t let other people into because they never have success. This is your chance to kind of teach them that it is make sense to share these parts. Usually you can get the person who’s been hurt to respond.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:06.839)
And we want to say this is much later in the process. We’re not asking the injured party to try to figure out why their partner who had the affair did it. We’re not asking them to be their therapist or to care about them until…
George (17:10.029)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:28.481)
they’ve really felt like, okay, my partner got it, how much they hurt me. And I have seen this happen, George, in sessions where sometimes the injured party does have kind of moments of enlightenment.
And they are able to, for one second, step outside the hurt place and think about their partner. One woman said, after tremendous betrayal, kind of looked at her partner and said, you know, I know you’re a good person and I know you didn’t do this to hurt me. And she had the moment of insight. She was very, very, very hurt. And she went through rage and anger and stuff too.
George (17:51.16)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:15.461)
But she also kind of saw that the pressures on the inside of her partner and his injuries from early in life had caused a lot of this acting out. And I knew somebody else who kind of was like curious, like, you you’ve been talking about…
George (18:28.76)
Done.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:39.093)
these deep feelings that you’ve having questions about life. I guess this is what it led to. I mean, it was just kind of amazing that for one minute, they stepped outside the herd. And that did kind of create in both places, both sessions.
George (19:02.134)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
George (19:25.398)
This is why the cycle is so important because just because you’ve been hurt and your emotional system is activated, there’s still, it’s still your job in a partnership to offer caregiving to your partner’s emotional system. I mean, that’s what we’re trying to line up. One person sharing their hurt and the other person gets responded to by their partner’s caregiving. Both sides have to do that to create secure attachment. A lot of times the person who’s create who’s done the betraying.
Might be the withdraw and they never have success with their feelings. Like if we can’t introduce caregiving from the partner to the withdraw, that withdraw is never going to re engage. even if you, this affair kind of gets dealt with, it’s going to be more likely to happen again down the road because that person still doesn’t get care given, doesn’t know how to get it in these vulnerable places. So there has to be a lot of work, a lot of foundation that time. And has to be right.
But I love that moment you said, like she was able for a moment to put aside our own hurt and access her caregiving. That could be curious about her partner to understand this part of a partner. And that’s a gift that you have to have capacity to give. But when you give it, that is actually what’s going to create the best chance of finding all the answers to these questions.
George (21:15.266)
Both, both the true, you can be hurt and then you could find moments where your caregiving system sees your partner, right? It doesn’t mean because you give caregiving that we’re saying the hurt isn’t justified. Of course that is. But all this sets the stage.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:30.951)
But the person who is injured, again, I just want to reiterate, the person who is injured, their grief and hurt and rage has to hit their partner and be received.
George (21:43.331)
Well, this is, this is the last step, right? The fourth step is all this work is to actually get the betrayed partner help. They have to kind of look in their partner’s eyes and see the partner’s care given focused on them, feeling their pain. Like that’s how we start to trust they won’t do it again when they understand the impact and what it’s done to us. that, how trust is built. That’s how forgiveness happens, right? When people are in the pain together.
We’ve done all this work to get to this point where the person who’s betrayed can say, listen, you’ve turned my world upside down. You’ve helped me understand how we got here. Right now I need, I need your help to believe this isn’t going to happen again. Like this is now all focused on meeting the need of the person who’s betrayed.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:35.817)
And I mean, I think that the person who stepped out and betrayed their partner has to ask for forgiveness. And forgiveness is not we’re going to bury this or if I receive forgiveness, my behavior is condoned. I just think both parties kind of have to come to this. And I don’t think it’s a moment. I think it’s a process. the humility in asking and
knowing you need forgiveness is kind of part of the exchange, right? Because your partner was oftentimes humiliated by the affair, by being left, by being publicly left. And so this act of contrition, I need your forgiveness, like coming to that point of humility, I think is an important exchange. You’re shaking your head on me there, George.
George (23:31.073)
I think, yeah, I know. I think that’s, that might be a step five we can throw in. think you have to be, if you’re betrayed, you need to be in a place to give forgiveness. mean, two important questions. If, if my partner betrayed me, I got to know one, do they get what it did to me? Do I really feel like, and two, because now they get it. Do I think they’ll do it again? Like if, if I, if I can answer.
Like, no, I think they get it and no, I don’t think they do it again. Like now I’m in a place where, know, you could ask me for forgiveness, right? But I think too often people ask for forgiveness when the work hasn’t been done. Right. And, and that’s, that just sets up the betrayed partner to be the ogre and the negative person. So it’s the time and of when we ask for that, I think.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:19.447)
I think that forgiveness isn’t a moment. It’s part of the healing process. think the person who was hurt and injured, it frees them as well. Rather than being vigilant, it’s like they’re kind of letting go. It isn’t condoning. I think forgiveness is about, I don’t know, just a…
George (24:29.998)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:48.055)
co-construction of the narrative, right? Together we’re saying, it’s not excusing the affair, but it’s about kind of…
developing a new story together. I’m saying I’m sorry and I’m asking for forgiveness because I need it because I have deeply injured you. And when I give forgiveness, it’s, mean, I’m not saying that you do it right away. You have to see proof that there’s been change. But letting go, think frequently for people who have been betrayed, if they don’t forgive, it wears
George (24:58.584)
Yeah, forgiveness.
George (25:27.672)
Yeah, I’m a huge fan of forgiveness. It’s liberating for both parties. But I think, you know, I work with a lot of people of faith and, too often they get pressured to forgive when they’re still in a threat response. Right? It’s like, you need a green brain to forgive. You really need to do the work where your mistrust and your fears are comforted and reassured. And from that place, you’re right. Forgiveness, making the choice to forgive allows you to know longer. It doesn’t mean you’re not going to have fears and things don’t come back.
But you’ve done enough work to get to a point of saying, I think you get it. I don’t think you do it again. I’m in a place where I can forgive you. I want to let go of this too. Right. And, that I think is, is an important step, but I think it needs to happen when they’ve reached a green brain, not any other brain.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:12.213)
No, no, I agree. I agree with you. Forgiveness is not forgetting. It’s not condoning. It’s about humility for the person asking. And it’s about letting go so that you can build a new chapter together for the person who was betrayed. But you deeply have to feel like your partner gets it.
and you have to feel certain, right, that your partner is not gonna do it again. And some of that is by looking on their face and seeing that they really, really see how much they hurt you and watching their character change.
George (26:47.586)
Yeah, again, why I think in ending this, why we are so hopeful, and we work with thousands of couples in affairs, is that there’s something about this process that’s very predictable. And if couples are committed and willing to do the work, I can’t tell you how many couples tell me afterwards, you know, I hate that this happened to us, but without a doubt, we are much closer and stronger after this than before that.
Right? That’s the opportunity in, and you can’t say that at the start of an affair when your world has turned upside down. But if you think about all the hours you’re spending on the low road, having these conversations, sharing these vulnerable parts of yourself in ways you’ve probably never done before, it creates an intimacy that is much stronger than, you know, usually pride.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:35.319)
Right, exactly. And I always say that to the person who was betrayed that vigilance, watching your partner, being anxious, monitoring them is never going to get you security, but intimacy will. And in this process, what you’re saying is people can become more intimate than they were before, talk about things that have never been talked about, inner things, things between them, and they can develop something that is stronger than what was before the affair happened.
George (28:06.766)
Both partners need to do something different. New moves is what create positive cycles. And there’s a lot of research around how to create forgiveness and create positive cycles after an affair.
George (28:20.728)
Do the work, everyone.
