In today’s episode we are discussing the “double hard.” This is when partners are in the same position in each cycle. When the emotional pursuer is also the sexual pursuer and the emotional withdrawer is also the sexually withdrawer, partners have a doubly hard time accessing the other’s internal world. The pursuer gets double rejected and the withdrawer gets double the pressure. These cycles can lead to more polarization, more rigidity and the feeling of speaking different languages.
Hosts, Laurie and George will guide listeners through each partner’s dilemma in parallel cycles. Through an excellent role play you will learn the motivation under the protective move and how to craft a better and more attuned conversation if your relationship experiences parallel positions in the emotional and sexual cycles. Partners are encouraged to get more curious with what is going on inside and try to experience their partner’s position in a different way. We hope our parallel position couples find some encouragement and hope in this episode!
Transcript
George (00:21.142)
All right, double hard, Laurie. Let’s talk about parallel positions in both the sexual and emotional cycles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:31.302)
What are you talking about double hard?
George (00:34.732)
What do think I’m talking about, Laurie?
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:36.424)
I got no idea, man. Sounds good,
George (00:41.966)
everything double hard.
Well, what am I talking about? We talk so often about the importance of the overlap between the emotional and sexual cycle, right? And for a little over 70 % of couples, have that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:48.454)
What are you talking about?
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:55.4)
Yeah.
George (01:03.726)
crisscross cycle where I’m the emotional pursuer and then sexually I withdraw or vice versa. you know, there’s a lot of common ground in that because we switch roles and, you know, though we don’t agree with what our partners doing in this cycle, we know something about it in the other cycle. A parallel, right, that parallel process is I am the same in both. So I’m an emotional withdraw and a sexual withdraw. I’m an emotional pursuer and a sexual pursuer. And, you know, that we just want to start off by acknowledging that is
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:18.692)
Right, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:26.652)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:30.471)
Mm-hmm.
George (01:33.68)
There’s less common ground. There’s more stuckness as therapists. know, you know, when a couple presents with that, it’s usually going to take them. It’s a longer process with a little bit more difficult work because it’s like learning new languages.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:46.798)
Right. When the cycles are parallel, so that means we’re a pursuer in both cycles or a withdraw in both cycles, it’s like the pursuer, unfortunately, gets doubly rejected and the withdraw gets doubly pressured. And I mean, this is really difficult. The first cycle, obviously, there’s empathy because you both know what it’s like to be rejected somewhere and you know what it’s like to feel like you got to get through to your partner.
George (01:57.88)
Yep.
George (02:01.504)
Exactly.
George (02:12.142)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:16.124)
But in this one, the two people are in very different places. And I think every therapist out there and probably every couple out there who struggles this way knows that it’s more difficult to resolve this than what we’ve been talking about for most people.
George (02:35.583)
There’s more polarization, there’s more rigidity because you’re in a fight or flight most of the time, right? In that, in the cycle, your body knows the one move and that’s what it’s going to. And that gets exhaustive and with more practice, it gets more rigid and entrenched and it gets, you know, more challenging to understand why the other person’s doing what they’re doing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:39.195)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:44.517)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:59.824)
Yeah, exactly. So one thing we are suggesting is like, let’s say you are a parallel withdraw. We want you to think about what the motive is in each cycle. So maybe emotionally you withdraw just to keep the peace, but sexually you withdraw to stay safe. And, you know, for all we know, your partner is reading them both as personal rejection, but
if you can kind of differentiate the different motives, you might get underneath your own behavior just a little bit and, and same with pursuers, right? If, you know, you might pursue emotionally to get connection, but sexually it’s kind of more of a fear-based place. You’re afraid you’re going to lose the relationship. And so you push and push and push, and then your partner kind of feels cornered in both places. I think that.
George (03:58.092)
I like that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:59.628)
is helpful. I’m really curious about this because it seems like just that tiny little bit, of differentiation between the cycles that feel the same to us, you know, feels like something important. I’m trying to think about my own life because I’m in a parallel cycle. Many years in, there’s a lot of
George (04:13.997)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:28.902)
movement and change. I want to encourage people because, and I know I talk about my husband sometimes, you know, like, this is what has happened, but you know, he’s really different. I he initiates sex a lot these days and he’s always sexually responsive. I would say that he hasn’t said no to me in, I don’t know, seven years. I mean, it’s been a long time. And so he’s responsive that way and he knows it’s a top priority for me.
And he initiates quite a bit too. And believe it or not, I’ve been saying recently just like, I’m so tired. I’m writing a book. can’t. My brain is dead. My body is dead. Yeah. you know, but it feels, it feels good. And so hope is out there, but you know, it does take a long time and it does. And I, you know, I think if
George (05:04.909)
I’m writing a book, leave me alone.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:24.05)
Derek and I had come from different families and we’d been more securely attached in the beginning, or perhaps if we had come to EFT earlier in our therapy journey, you know, it might have helped, but it is what it is. And so as I examine myself, like, go ahead.
George (05:43.0)
Well, let me make a comment too, because I think it’s important that differentiation piece that you’re mentioning. It happened so fast. Like we generalize, we globalize and we just think it’s the same. Like, here we go again, my partner’s critical. I’m just shutting down when it’s really not understanding which cycle you’re in really does help you get better data. Right. It’s like, wait a second. Is my partner.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:49.352)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:03.976)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
George (06:07.64)
projecting me or is my partner doing something else? Like which psych, I just like the curiosity that says, cause they are probably different, although they feel the same. mean, the action is the same. moving away, but maybe the motivation, what I’m looking for, what my partner’s doing is different. And those nuances are important for us to be curious to start at the end of the day, crisscross or parallel. It’s the same process. need people to get curious about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:12.508)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:18.128)
Mmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:24.358)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:31.014)
Mm-hmm.
George (06:35.308)
why they’re defending themselves. What’s the threat and actually being able to get help with that threat. So the move is the same towards a positive cycle. So that’s the hopeful news. It’s not like, you know, you’re a different speaking a different language. You can’t go into a different place. No, it’s exactly the same place. And if you could start differentiating which cycle am I in, which one am I even talking about here? I think you have a better chance of, of, of slowing that process down.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:44.38)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:50.952)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:02.204)
Well, I think what you’re saying is each of us in whatever cycle we find ourselves in, a crisscross or a parallel cycle, one of the ways out is to figure out like what’s happening inside us in which particular cycle. And if we can find, you know, like maybe what is beneath our protection, right? What’s motivating our protection? Certainly there’s frequently the pressure of the cycle.
George (07:18.498)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:29.938)
But there are other pieces too, and some of them we can get clear on. And anything we can do to, I think, kind of self-regulate a little bit gives us more ability to see the cycle from a distance and a bigger place and gives us more ability to resolve that.
George (07:52.334)
Exactly. Any good therapy is an expansion. what what defenses do is they give us tunnel vision, right? And we’re in tunnel vision, we just focus on what our partners doing. And we’re really not noticing our own experience like gaining access to you is how we start having new conversations. And that’s what we’re inviting people to do. So that withdraw is a double withdraw. They’re so often focused, I got to need to get away from the threat, the threat, they’re looking at the threat, they never actually noticing themselves.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:55.869)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:09.49)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:14.3)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:20.444)
Mm-hmm.
George (08:20.834)
Right, so for them to be able to say, wait a second, is this a threat sexually or emotionally? What’s going on? They’re now starting to do what they don’t do. They’re looking inward. They’re trying to gain access to who they are, which is the critical component towards doing it differently.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:26.055)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:35.494)
Right. When I kind of look back in my own life, I think that because of the disorganized way I grew up in childhood, sexuality was this very sure part. Well, I was not sexual with many people and certainly not fully sexual until I was with Derek.
But it was a part of myself that I knew. I knew it was very grounding. I certainly knew masturbation. And it was so concrete and available to me as a grounding kind of place. And I think emotionally, my world was just really up and down, mixed up with my family of origin. so sex has always felt like the safest.
most real part of my connection. And I think emotionally, that’s certainly maybe more where I felt that kind of frantic push inside that couldn’t be satisfied as much. Like wanting to figure out what was going on inside my partner and…
George (09:51.213)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:59.24)
and never really feeling satisfied when he would answer, well, this is what’s going on. It’s like, ah, it doesn’t ring true for me. Whereas when we had sex, it’s like, I knew we were together. I knew it was OK. And I felt our mutuality in it, like togetherness. It was very sure. And so,
George (10:21.856)
I love it. love you risking just exploring your own life, really looking at how different they are. Although you pursue in both, you’re a very different person in both. you know, looking at that, trying to understand you is very different in trying to focus on Derek and what he’s doing. So that, that is the common factor in any position that you’re in is that you got to start being curious about yourself to start trying to find words to how you’re being different or
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:38.056)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:44.04)
Mm-hmm.
George (10:51.76)
threatened because all these protective moves are just coming from that threat place.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:56.562)
Yeah, definitely, definitely. So.
George (11:01.07)
So we’re honoring that this is harder, right? If you’re in a double position because, know, and that also helps us point in the direction. Like if I’m a withdraw in both, I’ve overcompensated by going away. I don’t really know so much the fight response or the health in the fight response, right? It’s telling me what I need more balance. No wonder why I’m attracted to my partner. They represent something that I can’t really tap into myself.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:05.19)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:15.368)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:19.303)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:28.103)
Mm-hmm.
George (11:28.29)
But it’s pointing us in a direction we need to go.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:30.894)
Mm-hmm. I love that the withdrawers seem something strong and assertive and something good in the pursuer’s energy. And I would say that certainly early in the relationship, the pursuer often imagines that the unflappability of the withdrawer represents a sturdy stability. Like, OK, they
George (11:40.973)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:58.108)
They don’t get as distracted by endless thinking and overthinking and chaotic thoughts. They stay focused. And I would definitely say that about my partner. He has good focus and is able to not go crazy with thinking about all the possibilities of bad things that could happen, yada, yada. It’s like that is very grounding. And it is a good part of withdrawers that they compartmentalize, right?
George (12:20.418)
Yeah.
George (12:26.926)
Yeah. And wouldn’t that be a beautiful thing to want to explore? How can I be more calm like my partner and not overthink and be able to see the value of pulling away instead of, know, trying to always fight and protest, right? That’s that gives that person more balance when they could do both. The goal is to have both moves and be able to articulate that. So let’s.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:34.098)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:49.052)
Yeah. Yeah. So we want to see the benefit of the other partner’s moves. And we also want to see what it would be like to be in pain, know, doubly in both places, to feel cornered or to feel starving. Yeah. Okay.
George (12:56.62)
Mm-hmm.
George (13:05.202)
Exactly. Exactly.
All right, well, let’s come back and try to talk about that.
So what do we do? Do want to role play it?
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:18.556)
We could do that, sure. I’d be willing to do that.
George (13:29.656)
You know, as Laurie and I write in this book, we’re so clear on the crisscross and, you know, it’s so hopeful because we know exactly how to get couples to a much better place.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:40.018)
Yep.
George (13:40.33)
And honestly, we are a bit more stuck with that parallel process because it’s double hard for both partners and it’s a little bit harder to get them to take risks. They’re a little bit more rigid in their positions, you know, so we could get stuck and get pulled into that dynamics too. And, know, part of doing the podcast is just for us to, you know, be those couples and kind of live in their world and try to figure out how do we could help them.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:46.086)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:52.776)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:57.521)
Mm-hmm.
George (14:07.66)
you know, feel safe enough to take the risks because where they’re heading is exactly the same for every one of us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:15.024)
Right. The actual way you get through the cycle is the same steps. You have to risk asking. Your partner has to kind of swallow their doubt and their defenses so that they can really hear you. And then they have to come back with an empathic response. And enough repetitions of that ask, receive empathy, ask, receive empathy changes our nervous system.
George (14:21.581)
Yeah.
George (14:44.726)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:45.512)
You know, it literally makes us, we don’t have to go into fight or flight anymore with this person. They’re so safe. Like, I mean, I have a best friend who,
I don’t go into fight and flight with her. I mean, and she’s cranky. She’s always cranky. She doesn’t listen to the podcast, so can say anything I want. But she’s always sharp, and she’s prickly. But I don’t care. I absolutely know she loves me. there’s just like, we’ve been friends since we were 15. And I know that’s who she is. It doesn’t bug me. I never get upset. I never doubt anything.
You know, and that is solid ground. I mean, she’s as good as a sister. I have a few friends like that, I will say, A couple other girlfriends who have been that way for me as well. And a cousin, a male cousin who’s no matter what, he’s in my corner. So, I mean, I’ve had good attachment in my life that has been amazingly healing. All to say.
George (15:54.018)
Which is also a good point that you are not just stuck in this position. We could change positions in other relationships. So you’re describing more security where you might not be the pursuer actually. And some you might be not only more flexible, you might withdraw some of the time, which is just the hopeful news that we’re not just set, know, this die is cast and we just can’t get out of it. That no, absolutely we can get out of these positions.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:01.297)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:04.978)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:19.908)
Absolutely. George and I are working on becoming attachment figures for each other. It’s a slog, but we’re working on it.
George (16:25.858)
Yeah, bring it on, baby.
Well, it’s also where repairs are needed to continue figuring things out. But let’s try to role play a conversation between I’ll be the double withdraw. You’ll be the double pursuer.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:38.311)
Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:42.564)
Of course. Okay, I’m familiar. Okay.
George (16:47.538)
And we’re trying to figure out how to actually see the health in the other person’s move, the move that we hate, right? It’s like, I really can spend good amount of time telling you why you shouldn’t be so critical. And you could tell me why I shouldn’t be going away. I mean, how often have we done that with no results? It’d be a little bit different for us to see the health in each other’s move.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:54.732)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:04.338)
Mm-hmm.
Right, 100 times, thousands of times.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:14.372)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Maybe you go first. You’re the withdraw. You have to come forward first. Your new move.
George (17:20.238)
There you go. Show my new move. Well, Maria.
George (17:28.374)
I do think it’s been helpful. I like to understand things. And, you know, as we’ve been kind of reading about these cycles and, you know, I am, I can relate to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:33.756)
Mm-hmm.
George (17:41.934)
And I would always get lost in a problem and what we were fighting about. kind of miss those, those patterns that like, do feel criticized and I protect myself by going away. And I know when I go away, that makes you feel like I’m not there for you. And that’s frustrating. Like, so I mean, I think we both get our cycles and it’s frustrating for us that we can’t get out of them. Right. So, and I think I was just trying to be curious with me what, what makes it hard for me to get out of it is.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:57.202)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:03.943)
Mm-hmm.
George (18:11.278)
A lot of times I don’t really get your energy. don’t get, you know, why you need to make a comment or, know, and, it sets it off so quickly. I’m already back into my positions, safety and you’re then not, I’m rejecting you. like, so I really have been found myself thinking about really befriending your energy, like trying to see.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:28.743)
Mm-hmm.
George (18:37.122)
what it’s really trying to do, which is it wants such good things. it’s, it’s so hard for me when it’s happening, but I’m getting much better afterwards. Just say, wait, she said that comment, not to be mean. She said that comment because she wanted something more from us. Like she, she’s coming from this place that has such good energy that it wants to love more. And, you know, I guess that is what I’m starting to appreciate more that you’re willing to fight for that, that you’re, you know,
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:39.25)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:52.039)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:59.207)
Mm-hmm.
George (19:05.964)
You don’t always play it safe. Like this is how change happens. Like, I don’t know. I just find something shifted in me as I, as I try to, to, to actually like this, this fight response in you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:11.301)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:17.096)
And I would say I feel that. You know, I feel the the empathic, merciful kind of look at my energy. And I think that sometimes when we’re in conflict and you you remind me of the sturdiness of our relationship, regardless of the current conflict, that’s like amazingly stabilizing. It’s like, OK, good, OK, OK.
it immediately loosens in me that sense of kind of the frantic thing that I need to get through. It’s like, OK, that feels really good. So I have certainly noticed your effort in that direction. I I also feel like just in terms of the caretaking cycle, you’ve also stepped up a lot in terms of, I don’t know, noticing, observing, being curious about.
little things that are going on and that to me says, you’re with me. So it doesn’t feel as much in me like I have to reach you.
George (20:27.064)
I’ve noticed that too. And I think it’s been helpful as we’ve been trying to differentiate between like, where am I pulling away? Is that sexually or emotionally? Because they are different for me. And I’ve never, I just assume they’re the same thing. just, my brain’s like, she’s being critical. Boom, I’m done. But they’re actually different. And I’ve been trying to explore more of that in myself. It’s like, you know, I guess I feel more pressure.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:40.232)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:44.935)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
George (20:55.404)
in the bedroom than I do in these emotional conversations. The emotional conversation seemed more to me like I just don’t want to waste energy on a fight so I play it safe, but it’s very different in sexually where I can feel the pressure of like failing. I don’t know, does that make any sense?
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:59.58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:14.824)
It does, but I’m wondering, could you go a little further so I could understand that? God, I know. So, okay, let me hear first capture what I’m hearing. Emotionally, it’s a little easier for you to stay with the higher energy. But sexually, it lands in you just as pressure.
George (21:23.052)
What a shock, he’s pushing me.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:44.232)
And maybe you’re not even sure, which would make sense about what’s happening inside you and what you feel about that.
George (21:55.566)
Yeah.
George (21:59.054)
guess both of them don’t end great, but there’s something that feels more pressing in the sexual cycle. It’s like, you know, I’m letting you down. I’m failing as a man. I’m like, things gonna work. Like, there’s just, it feels like higher stakes where like these emotional conversations, it’s like, I know you want to talk and maybe it’s not the right time. And like, I don’t feel the same, like, gravity that I do a lot of times in sexual conversations.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:26.766)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It’s different somehow or another. It’s like more serious. There’s more gravity. When we’re talking about sex or if I initiate or something, it’s like it… There’s a lot of things. You said you feel pressured. You want to perform. You worry that you’re not going to be enough, not man enough, something. Like there’s a lot of worry that you feel.
when I initiate or say something. Okay.
George (22:58.414)
So let’s pause, because again, just as being Joey or whoever I am in this situation, I can feel the best way into my vulnerability is through that sexual cycle. I can feel the heaviness and the weight of it. It’s like this is where if you want me to start having success, like there’s some motivation here to want to address that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:03.399)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:10.279)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:21.276)
Mm-hmm.
George (23:21.474)
Like, so I feel like if you want the witcher or to reengage, which is the goal, you need them to access these parts of themselves. This is a much lively door to get me into it. And if I could actually share some of these places and have that success from Maria responding with her caregiving, like that is exactly what leads to which were reengaged with. need to have success with these emotions. They chronically keep to themselves.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:30.504)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:38.312)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:44.168)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I noticed just at my side of it, so the listeners can hear as well, that when I asked a question, like you kind of joked and said, I’m being pushed. But I do think, that is my tendency to ask questions, right? I’m an information gatherer. Like, if I feel like I have enough information, then I can solve problems.
But for you, questions kind of land as more pressure without kind of the escort into your own world, into your own feelings, like I’m walking alongside you. Then I’m kind of directing you.
George (24:28.206)
But I also, yeah, but I was playful with it because I felt this is the work we’ve done, that I could name something in real time that I could never name. Like that question does some pressure on me. And I could tease you a little bit because you’ve taken some ownership for it, which you did. Like, and that’s the growth that we’ve done, right? That we have an awareness that we didn’t have, which creates some more safety that tolerate going a bit deeper.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:40.392)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:44.646)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:53.442)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (24:55.32)
So I was fine with that question. It was actually part of me that appreciates that question. That knows that you’re trying to get to something important. And it doesn’t, yeah, we’ve come. We’ve come, baby. We’ve come.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:59.432)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:04.038)
Wow, look how far we’ve come. That’s awesome. Okay, so how can I, I want to help you. We’re almost done. This is such an exciting conversation. How can we be almost done with our episode?
George (25:19.946)
I’m like, thank God it’s almost over. I don’t have to reveal anything else.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:22.024)
Yeah. Okay. So we want to help the Withdrawal. Just last note here. We want to help the Withdrawal who is curious about himself talking about this piece. We don’t want to overshoot him like a pursuer can do, like put things together for him or connect the dots. We want to pace. We want to tell ourselves as a pursuer, this might be one of 1600 conversations, but at least it’s one.
George (25:26.284)
The world of a witch.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:52.166)
and we’re getting there. And so you kind of got to hold onto yourself while the pursuer does this exploration. And then what else can I do like?
George (25:58.092)
Yep. as well, this is something what drawer has to do is they have to find something in it for themselves. Like I found myself wanting to know the difference between my emotional and sexual experience. Right. And I was exploring myself. There’s no shortcut to that. The drawer has to go a little bit deeper into themselves.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:07.144)
you
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:13.074)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:19.654)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (26:21.356)
And then they have to have success when they do that, which is what makes this hard. Cause if I don’t want to go there, we don’t have movement. Or if I go there and my pursuer doesn’t respond, I don’t have movement. So this is why you got to line both of them up to move the needle.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:31.762)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:35.47)
Mm-hmm. And I think that I would just say, and I know we’re close to our end here, but the pursuer response, sometimes we’re also pursuers in the caretaking cycle. So we overshoot, we overcare, we anticipate the need and give before it’s asked for. You know, so we want to really pace ourselves, like not teaching, not…
leading them, just watching, reflecting, validating, appreciating. I love, Joey, that you are even willing to talk about this with me. That feels really new and good. you brought this whole thing up. Thank you. I love that. I love how we’re changing.
George (27:24.014)
This is where, thank you, this is where the pursuers can learn from the withdrawers. There’s something about backing off. We have two ears to listen, right, for a reason. And that kind of grounded pacing that gives the space for something to emerge is super important. So both positions have a lot to learn from each other.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:32.978)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:42.589)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Thanks for listening.
George (27:49.848)
Keep it hot
