Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode, we answer a mailbag question from a long-time listener. Our listener is a sexual pursuer wanting to know how to improve things in their sexless marriage.
Join Laurie and George as they provide expert advice on how to prioritize your relationship during the busy parenting years, identify where you are blocking connection and effective ways to communicate this intimate conversation. Their role play shows how to correct a negative cycle and get the conversation moving in a positive and meaningful direction.
Want to get your question answered on an episode? Head over to our website and drop a message in our mailbag. We love to hear from our listeners!
Brave Love, Great Sex out on September 15th–pre-order your copy today!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:44.068)
Okay. We got a mailbag. You know, this is one that we hear all the time, Of often the sexual pursuer who’s so frustrated, feels like they’ve tried everything. Let’s help this person.
george (02:07.019)
We all need help, Laurie. Listen to this. Keep it coming.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:10.896)
Okay.
george (02:12.513)
All right, so here we go. The mailbag. I’ve been a long time listener and appreciate your language and framing. Not sure this is the right place for this, but I’d love some advice. I’m pretty sure I’m insecurely attached pursuer and my wife is an avoidantly attached withdraw. She’s been doing his homework. I’ve been trying to get creative for years, calorinating, planning, massage, communicating my desires to be more rented, et cetera.
but nothing seems to break through. She’s an early riser. I’m a night owl. We have two active kids, multiple work responsibilities, family commitments, and very few times alone in any capacity, let alone the bedroom. If we have sex more than four to five times a year, it’d be a miracle. Therapy would be great, but again, who has the time? My goal hope is once a month or even every other month, but I’m really at my wit’s end.
Thanks for reading. Like you said, we hear this all the time. And we know almost 20 % of couples are considered sexless, which is sex what, less than two times a year. So less than 10 times. So this, here’s a net category.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:13.712)
Mmm.
We hear you. Every day.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:25.319)
less than 10 times a year. he’s fitting into that category. Yeah. And I appreciate, right, he’s not asking for the moon here. He’s saying six times a year I’d take.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:42.288)
Yeah, and it’s true. You those are busy years when you’ve got kids and you’re running them back and forth to sports and all kinds of things. I think that’s the first thing that I would like to kind of think about with him is many times couples prioritize the children. And he may be saying, you know, well, my partner, my wife prioritizes the children, you know, and she’s got nothing left.
at the end of the day. But one of the big things I think couples need to do is children grow up, you know, and you got to have a relationship after the children are gone too. So what are you doing that creates that? And many, many times what I hear when this couple does finally come into my office is that they both have needs for each other, desperate needs for each other during this time because
How can you continue to support children when you’re feeling like you’re not getting replenished? Sexually or emotionally, mean, we need that filling from our partner.
george (04:56.993)
Yeah, this is such an important topic that I think try to encourage him starting off with that, right? I mean, I was doing a training in a Jewish community and one of the participants were like, you know, in the Torah, it actually says that a woman could.
divorce her husband, which is really almost impossible to do if he’s not able to sexually please her. I mean, this stuff is built in. Like this is, I love that Laurie’s emphasizing, this is a need. We are born like with a need for food and water and sleep, a need to find connection.
You know, we can find that through conversations. We find that through physical touch, but we shouldn’t have to apologize for this need because it gets pathologized by these negative cycles that we fall into, right? The more pressure, the more busy. And I love that you’re highlighting like how much we prioritize as parents, given our kids.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:35.889)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:46.311)
All
george (05:55.98)
caregiving to their attachment needs. mean, we are willing to sacrifice pretty much everything so they don’t experience their needs not being met. And yet when you look at their relationship, the partnering of the parents, they’re willing to do this all the time to each other, like not meet each other’s needs, not give each other caregiving, prioritize everything else work, you know, this, that, like something’s wrong with that. We’ve lost our balance.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:20.089)
Right, right, and I mean, right, and I think a lot of parents prioritize the children above their own need for sleep, for, you know, for money. I mean, how many times do young parents tell me, we decorated the nursery. I’m like, what’s the master bedroom look like? You know? Like, is it empty of pictures on the wall, no, you know, no comforter? Like, great.
george (06:27.991)
Yeah.
george (06:39.969)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:46.863)
You know, I see that you’ve prioritized that, but are you also taking care of you? I think people really have to think about, OK, we’ve got our kids in camp. We’ve got our kids in soccer. We’ve got our kids in, you know, special tutoring. But we don’t have any money left to go on an overnight weekend. I’m like, OK, something’s wrong with this balance. Something I know how much and I know I’ve been a parent. I know how easy it is to give to your children.
george (07:09.089)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:17.169)
But if you don’t hold something back for the two of you, you’re actually weakening the branches that hold that nest of the children. You’re weakening the very foundation that makes the children feel secure. Because children who are living with parents who are depleted are actually not getting their needs met.
george (07:40.61)
Yeah, I really believe part of this problem is the optics, right? mean, parents, people see what you’re doing for your kids. It can be measured. mean, you’re running around and you’re exhausted and people see it and they hate that. You’re a great dad. You’re a great mom. People are seeing the effort. Like we hide what’s happened in the bedroom. No one has to see it. So it’s, it’s a lot easier to short change what’s happening in the bedroom. again, we’re not trying to lecture people. just trying to invite you to think about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:50.064)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:55.056)
Yeah.
george (08:10.665)
So much of this stuff happens. don’t think about it consciously. It’s just like, for him, for example, I think when you get rejected so many times, like, don’t recognize that your need for sex starts to become pathologized. Like, yeah, you go again, annoying bugging me. Like, you know, we start to take on the other person’s blocks. And I think a good starting point is just, you know, to, really shout out.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:17.051)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:32.665)
Yeah, let’s
george (08:38.433)
the health and wanton physical connection through sex to stop apologizing for this. Like you don’t have to do it in reactive, angry, resentful ways, but in positive, healthy ways that says, I want to make love to my partner. It’s how I feel safe in the world. It’s how I feel alive in the world. It’s what I look forward to. It’s a payoff for all the work that I do. I don’t need to apologize. I want this and I’m going to keep coming and expressing this want in much clearer ways than doing it in all these subtle ways that the negative cycle creates.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:09.191)
Exactly. Let me talk about it because you said something. You said, you know, sex is a need. And this is where we’re going to get pushback from people. It’s like, no, I need water and food to survive. I don’t need sex to survive. Let me reframe that. Sex is a need for a romantic relationship, sexual connection. Certainly there are exceptions, right? People who are taking care of their partner, they’ve moved into a caretaking role or
you know, when disease states kind of enter or maybe, you know, there are times, you know, people who struggle with asexuality or something. There are times that sex in a romantic relationship is not considered imperative, but for most of us, right, we get married, we get partnered because we want emotional connection and sexual intimacy. That’s what the research says, that most of us expect
both of those things. we know that statistically when those two areas are strong, we have the best hope for an enduring bond that is not subject to divorce. 59 % of people who get divorced say that sexual problems, not necessarily sexual dysfunction, but problems getting together sexually were the root cause of it.
george (10:31.127)
Yeah, this is.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:31.661)
I mean, we’re safeguarding our relationship when we keep this as a priority.
george (10:38.413)
And that’s a healthy boundary saying this is what you’re committing to, that both of you are gonna kind of show up for each other and open up this doorway into connection. It’s, know, and when it goes off, which we talk a lot, negative cycles throw it off and usually puts one person in a role of not wanting it because it doesn’t feel so good and has a ton of pressure. We’re not blaming anybody, but we’re trying to get both people to come together and say, hey, listen, we’re putting our relationship at threat by not doing this.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:58.087)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:05.862)
Yeah.
george (11:06.229)
You, your one partner becomes the ogre. The other becomes the person who’s rejecting their body’s broken. Like you’re both losing in this negative cycle. Like get to work. If you get to work, you can figure this out. This is not unsolvable. That’s what’s so frustrating for Laurie and I. So many partners feel this way. And it’s like, we’ve been trying to do this for years and we can’t change this. We’re losing. It’s killing our relationship. And they just start to resign themselves and accept it. And before, know, five times a year turns into four times, turns into two times. And now they haven’t had sex in a couple of years. And it’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:13.593)
You are. Yeah.
george (11:36.143)
Like, how did we let this happen?
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:38.436)
Exactly. And I want to say something to the busy young mother, you know, or the busy middle-aged mother. You know, it’s like, I know many times it’s not like they’re saying, I don’t want sex. They sometimes like sex, but they tell themselves, I don’t have time for sex. And my body takes so long. It’s like, you know, I don’t have time. There’s so many things I got to get up in the morning and do. I’m working or I’m taking care of the children or I’m doing both. And
that my list is a mile long and I have so many things in the household to get done. Are you kidding me? It’s like sex requires a trip away, you know, because that’s the only time I get space to do that. And we don’t have money and we don’t have time to do those things anymore. And it’s like, okay, I know, I know. First of all, you got to put yourself on that list. You got to say, you have to have some autonomy. You have to go out with the girls. You have to have a hobby. You have to…
You know, take a little bit of time for yourself. You know, I told my daughter-in-law who I’m helping this next year, she’s working full time with two small children. And I said, when I’m babysitting in the afternoons, I’m going to babysit two afternoons. I’m like, don’t rush home. Go do an errand. Go to the gym. Take an extra hour for you. Just, you know, leave work and take some you time. Because I know how important that is.
for her to retain a sense of self when she’s drowning in responsibility.
george (13:13.101)
Yeah, that’s beautiful. You’re helping in that way. You know, and it’s, it is.
We’re not doing this for him. mean, that’s the irony here. People, get, you know, the man in this example saying, Hey, I need more sex. Help me. And we want to help him not to feel healthy about the need, but this is also really a shout out for her to say, what are the good reasons you’ve gotten to this place where you no longer want sex?
It’s not your fault. We’re not trying to blame anybody. We’re just trying to kind of shine a light and say, let’s look at this. This is a solvable issue. You could reprioritize things. You could have conversations that lead to a much better outcome for both of you and the relationship and the kids, ironically.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:49.382)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:58.308)
It will help the children, absolutely, if the marriage stays sexual. And again, she may not be saying, I don’t want sex. She may be saying, I don’t have time for sex. And this is my favorite little trick here. Vibrators, know, vibrators make Thursday night sex possible. Because it can be a quickie, and it doesn’t have to be a great big deal. But you have an orgasm too.
which usually feeds your desire or at least makes your mental desire more appealing. It’s like, yeah, yeah, okay, well, I’m not going to fail. It’s not gonna be this big deal that he wants, but we’re both going to have orgasms. We’ll feel more connected. There’ll be more peace between us. My body will feel good. This is a good thing. So think about that. Thursday night vibrator sex.
george (14:47.127)
Let’s come back. Let’s let’s come back and maybe Joey Maria will try to talk about this.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:53.69)
Okay.
george (14:58.829)
All right, Laurie, so let’s just try to have a conversation with these thousands of couples. You know, I’m Joey, I’m frustrated we haven’t had sex in months for good reasons. You’re you know, we haven’t had sex for months to you just we’re not dealing with it. We’re not talking about when we do it turns into a fight. Right. So we got to be able to have a conversation that, know, I’m going to initiate because I want to bring it up. But I got to do so in a way that’s coming from a healthy spot, but also protecting Maria in the conversation.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:06.535)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:24.603)
Yep. Okay.
george (15:25.057)
You know, Marie’s got to be open to the conversation for us to start moving the needle in this.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:30.361)
Okay, but let’s show a little bit of resistance because I think that’s going to be realistic. Okay.
george (15:34.509)
All let’s do how they typically do it. All right. So Marie, I know, you know, you don’t think about this. It’s not too important to you, but, you know, I am frustrated. We, know, it’s been months since we had sex and, and I just, I mean, are you ever going to want to have sex?
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:55.272)
You know, I don’t ever find myself wanting to have sex. I get up in the morning, I go all day long. I’m dealing with work. I’m dealing with the children. know, dinner is rushed. There’s so many things to get done in the household. And managing the children, you know, and I fall in bed. I fall in bed at 10.30. Joey, I fall in bed at 10.30. I’m dog tired.
george (16:16.823)
This just excuses.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:24.047)
When are we supposed to have sex?
george (16:25.483)
Yeah, it’s always an excuse. mean, your priorities are all out of whack.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:29.892)
I really feel like you’re not hearing me. I think it would be helpful if you helped me more. I mean…
george (16:32.169)
Yeah, because it’s the same excuses every single time.
I know that’s what you say I fit I do dishes I don’t do dishes don’t make a difference you never want to have sex I think you should see a doctor or something
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:45.793)
Ugh. You know, I feel like you’re blaming me and it’s all my fault. And you don’t see that this is just a time and a season in life. Our kids are going to grow up. They’re only this age once. I want to be there for them. Nobody was there for me when I was these ages. I want to be there for my kids.
george (17:06.093)
All right, let’s pause there.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:07.942)
You
george (17:09.983)
Again, this is a failure to repair. How many times are we going to have this conversation where I get frustrated. I get rejected in the conversation because I get no movement. Maria gets the message. She’s failing again, more pressure, not going to make a one to have sex. mean, every time we have this conversation and negative cycle wins, the distance increases, the less likelihood we’re going to have sex.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:32.581)
Right, exactly. Okay, let’s do it the positive way.
george (17:35.181)
So we gotta be able to do that differently. All right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:43.591)
You want to bring it up? He’s thinking, Joey’s thinking. Joey’s trying to like, what the heck do I do? Oh my gosh.
george (17:44.352)
Yep. Yep. I’m thinking Joey’s trying to assist. What a lot of pursuers do. They, they try to find the words. They’ve tried to find the right words. It feels like trying to put the, you know, through the needle ass thread the needle, but you know, just starting from a place, again, the main thing I want to listen to is I’m going to try to be coming from a healthy place for myself, but also protective of Maria in it. So, so Marie, I, you know, I, I.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:07.492)
Okay.
george (18:12.609)
I want to touch base and if now’s not the right time, let me know. I know sometimes we have a history of talking about sex and we both wind up losing and that’s the last thing I want because I know you got a lot on your plate and you know I just want to make room for what I think is important and healthy and do so in a way that doesn’t make you feel bad. I’m not really sure how to do that but would now be a good time you want to do this later.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:37.327)
I guess it would be as good a time as any. I feel a lot of dread.
george (18:42.593)
Yeah, and again, I feel the dread too, because we have a history of when we talk about this, we both lose, we both feel bad. really hope, that’s my longing is to do this differently, because I know how much I love you, I know how much you love me. I know we’ve had a history where we could connect physically. I miss that, I’m sure you’re missing that. I’m really just trying to kind of grab your hand and say, can we figure anything out that could just kind of move us in a direction of getting closer to each other?
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:12.677)
Yeah, I appreciate that Joey. I certainly want you to feel close to me. I want to feel close to you. I you know, these are busy times. I feel like I’m not the only one who’s busy, you know, and yeah. So.
george (19:28.173)
Yeah, I know. It’s definitely both of us.
And again, I get said that you kind of get to blame in these conversations, right? And I know it’s both of us. And that’s why I’m trying to problem solve with you. You know, but I also, you know, I want to not feel bad for this need that I have, you know, because I know we’re intimate. I feel closer. I feel more alive. I feel more optimistic. I feel good about us. I feel good about the world. I have more energy, you know. So this is this.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:00.771)
I do too. I do too, Joey. I do too. I feel better with you.
george (20:02.945)
There were again. And that’s why, again, it’s the part that’s puzzling is that we both feel better. We both feel close. The world’s a better place. And so often because of the busyness of our lives, you know, so often we’re just keeping our head above water. So I understand that, right. But it really feels like the loss of that, you know, is, is, is our closeness. And it’s just sad.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:27.941)
Yeah, I get that. You know, my girlfriend Linda and her husband, they don’t have sex that often, but they do get away like once a quarter. And they go to a hotel like for the weekend. don’t know. She’s got her mom in town to babysit, but they get away once a quarter and they she tells me they have really great sex. And I think that kind of tides them over.
george (20:58.061)
It sounds good to me. mean, again, it’s just getting some of that time again where it’s just us. I mean, I know how important the kids are and how much we sacrifice for them. But, you know, I often feel and that’s where my resentment comes from. And I know it’s not fair because it puts pressure on you, but it feels like, you know, somehow we don’t invest in us. And I love that idea of like at least once a quarter where we can just have two days where we forget about everything else and just replug in. Like it gives me something to look forward to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:27.259)
Yeah, yeah, it would give me something to look forward to too. I feel like having your attention, your undivided attention would really make me probably more likely to wanna have sex and that would help for sure.
george (21:44.46)
Yeah. Well, and I, and I get, don’t do a great job of that in the business of our lives. And I know that makes it harder for you. And again, I’m sorry. That’s why I know there’s a lot I need to do differently here. I don’t want this to be falling on your laps. I know a lot of times my frustration does that, but I know there’s a lot that I do that doesn’t set the stage the way it could. I could do a lot better in that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:00.024)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:08.955)
Yeah, so I guess then my mind goes to the practical, you know, we don’t have parents in the area like Linda. I mean, maybe your parents would be willing to come for a week and, you know, on the weekend, watch the children and maybe my mom would come once a year and to do that. But then how do we find two other babysitters that we could even trust, you know, for the other weekends?
george (22:36.045)
Well, I think that would be something fun to do if we get the first one down. If I get my parents, I’ll take that responsibility. I’ll try to set that up. you know, maybe that’s part of it. We’re going on a walk. We can talk about and try to problem solve. But I feel optimistic that you just and I know you want it, too. That’s why, again, it gets confusing. And I’m just excited to hear that you want it, too. It feels really good.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:40.519)
you
Okay, I’ll ask my mom.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:57.831)
I know.
I too, I think I’m just so worn down by this cycle and I’m just so tired as it is. just, you know, my resistance is not the idea. It’s like, it’s just one more thing to plan. And I just feel like if you could help me with this, we could set some barriers around.
that special time and just not let anything get in the way that that would actually be really good for me and for us and and I know you do need it and it’s not like I’m you know don’t think you’re attractive or something like that it’s just it’s just so tiring during this season
george (23:44.366)
Yeah, and I like the idea that like we need this. It’s not something I need, right? Because so often that’s what kind of it feels like. Like this is something we need. This is important for us as a couple. When we have this, the world’s a better place. And we need to get back to just saying, we got to figure out whatever it is. And if it’s your tiredness and too much on your plate, that interferes that we need to do something about that. That’s, you know, just getting in the way of what is best for us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:11.085)
Exactly. Exactly. Okay, I’m, I’m with you. I’m, I feel a little bit better about this. This is a much better conversation than we’ve had in the past. I appreciate you not getting mad at me. And I know when this conversation started, I felt dread, but I feel like you stayed in there with me. And, and thank you for that.
george (24:33.941)
And thank you. mean, it is so encouraging when I see you again, because that’s really all I want.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:40.977)
Thank you. That’s George, come back to us. I mean, I really do think that there’s got to be a way. So many people say we don’t have a babysitter in the area that we trust. It’s like, that’s your number one task, to find a babysitter that you trust. Maybe it’s your church group, and you find a college-aged woman that you pay to come for months on
george (24:57.697)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:09.797)
like when you’re there first so that they get the routine, maybe start with an evening away. You have to cultivate a babysitter that you trust, find somebody, and it’s a process. It’s not like you’re gonna find a college girl and leave her for the weekend. That’d be crazy. But over six months time, yeah. You can develop, they can learn your routines, the bedtime, what the kids do and go, you can figure it out. This is…
Finding a good, reliable, safe, trustworthy babysitter is your number one task. If you don’t have that, you need that. If you don’t have family, I get it.
george (25:45.206)
I wish right.
I wish we had more time. I wish churches and different organizations would run support groups, which is all for people. Yes, we don’t have time for this stuff. But like what you’d find is you get eight couples together. They all have the same issue. Wouldn’t it be cool if they just took turns? Like I watch your kids this once a month. You watch mine the next month. Like this is not that complicated. We can get creative. We get people to the moon. We figure out how to get offer, you know, two days to kind of recharge the emotional bond.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:05.039)
Yeah, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:10.681)
Yeah. Yeah. You would think. Yeah. My YMCA locally here does date night once a month for young parents. You know, they, they, right. It’s like a drop and leave because usually you drop your kids, have to stay at the YMCA, but this is date night. So you’re allowed to leave the premises. And there are places and organizations that are happening. But I, really think that’s important.
george (26:21.367)
Beautiful.
george (26:31.82)
Edit.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:40.067)
I understand. raised children without family support. mostly, know, finally, by the time I got to North Carolina, my sister-in-law, God love her, was very helpful. But it’s like, you need that help. And if you’re a family member and you can give that to your children, please think about a night off every other week, once a month even, just so that they can have a date night. So important.
george (27:06.559)
And as added inspiration, it’s also really healthy for the kids to kind of hear a message that the parents’ needs are really important too. And sometimes that’s gonna supersede the kids’ needs and that’s okay. And that’s, kids gotta learn how to not always get their needs met. It’s not on demand. It’s, anyway, whole nother conversation, but.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:18.787)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:29.007)
Right. But I mean, I think, you know, the gift to the next generation for me is for my grandchildren to create more security for them is I take care of my adult children. Like I help them so that they can get away, so that they have breathing space, because I know they will be better parents. And yes, I can give my grandchildren all the love in the world, but helping my enabling my children to give their children.
george (27:42.839)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:55.705)
love and support because they feel supported. That’s the gift.
george (28:00.311)
The goal isn’t to run yourself ragged till you collapse in the bed at the end of the day. Our life is more to offer. So if you find yourself with the most beautiful intentions, I don’t think there’s nothing more beautiful than sacrificing your own needs for others. But sometimes we lose our balance with that and there’s nothing wrong with recalibrating.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:04.007)
It’s not.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:20.656)
Right. Okay, thanks for listening. Buddy, hang in there.
george (28:23.841)
Keep it hot, y’all.
