Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode, we explore the often overlooked topic of loss during menopause. Navigating this life transition can bring up unexpected grief, changes in identity, and shifts in physical intimacy.
Join us as we discuss how to honor these experiences, communicate needs to your partner, and find new ways to connect during the hormonal and emotional tides. Listen in as George and Laurie break the silence and help you find support through this significant chapter of life.
Make sure to pre-order a copy of our book, Brave Love, Great Sex, and follow us on our socials @BraveLoveGreatSex for updates and more relationship tips! As always, keep it hot!
Transcript
george (00:39.096)
Menopause, such a hugely important transitional time that a lot of couples don’t talk about it. But we’re gonna talk about it today, Laurie.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:48.992)
Right, exactly. Can we have hot flashes and hot sex? That’s what I want to know. Woo. You know, every couple. Let me let me bring in with our book. Brave, love, great sex. It’s on sale right now. Amazon, Penguin, Barnes and Noble, everywhere you find books. some of our communities, thank you so much if you’re listening and you’re one of our EFTers. We would love your community to help us.
by buying some books before September fifteenth, especially if we’re visiting your community. That would be great.
george (01:26.568)
Help spread the word on social media, people. We appreciate the support. We’re gonna have a we have the book. We’re holding a picture. Lori and I, the new book is actually physical copy in our hands, which is always feels like a birthing, right? You actually can touch something, it’s tangible. You know, so if you could help spread the word with all your audiences, reach out to us, let us know, you know, at Brave Love Great Sex Instagram.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:41.148)
I know.
george (01:51.9)
Fallard George, Dr. Laurie Watson, all these different ways we’re trying to get this word out.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:57.066)
Exactly. Exactly. So let’s talk about menopause and kind of the we you wanted to talk about the emotional grief that happens, I think, for the couple, right?
george (02:05.744)
Yeah. It it I think there’s so much emphasis on the practical. I mean, at least as a guy, a lot of times this is the way we think and you know, the S there hormonal changes and maybe there’s less desire and it’s you know, the guy’s body’s changing too. And so it’s just kind of we have this logical conversation and you know, I was working with a couple the other day and you know, the wife was saying, like this this has been something so important.
every, you know, month of her life for all these decades. You know, it represents birth. It represents life. I mean, so just emotionally, what a huge loss it is for her. And I was like, wait a second. Like I I didn’t even think about that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:44.493)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:51.158)
Yeah, exactly. and I felt that. I mean, it probably doesn’t surprise you, George, but I actually liked my period. You know, it was really? well, given what you know of me, you that’s surprising. I yeah. Okay. So I mean, I think for me I didn’t have to hold on.
george (02:59.686)
It’s d it’s a little surprising, yes. Yeah.
george (03:09.48)
Well, it’s I’m excited to hear why.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:23.958)
I didn’t have terrible periods, that’s one thing. But you know, I had cramps and felt bloated and but I always felt life. It I always felt this aliveness, like it was exciting to me to think about, you know, my body is functioning and my body is working. And I knew that it was I I don’t know, maybe my education about it. I it just felt so alive when I was on my period and
george (03:32.051)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:53.354)
I didn’t have any kind of prohibition about not being able to have sex in my period. I know I know people feel very differently about that. But it it was just it was a good feeling. It was a good feeling. And when it of course I am in menopause, which means past that perimenopausal state and now with periods ceasing, you know, I I think for me again.
There was a bit of mourning, like, you know, I’m not gonna have this reminder every month of the ability to have children, the sense of how that made me feel feminine. but I I guess for me, again, I I’ve I’ve reoriented myself and I do feel freedom in it as well. I mean, I I still feel like my body is strong. and I you know, and
george (04:34.023)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:49.246)
I know all the tricks to resolve the problems sexually that are important so that sex can stay in line for me. But I don’t know. I I guess I’m very accepting of this part. Both I loved having a period and in menopause, you know, I it hasn’t made me feel old. It’s like it’s like, it’s kind of free. You know, you have a a little less that you have to deal with. for me probably particularly less mood changes and
That’s kind of a more stable state, so I appreciate that.
george (05:22.641)
Yeah. Well I just I I wanna take time ’cause it feels newer to me and it’s like tough. You shouldn’t know this stuff, right? But again, we’re all born in our bodies and just the loss ’cause I’ve heard that saying, it feels like I’m less of a woman now.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:37.034)
Mm. Yeah.
george (05:37.532)
Like this this this thing that was so dependable, that gave me a sense of life that represented birth and and given life and like this this thing that yes it might cause problems and frustrations too, but like once it disappears, it’s like you lose a part of yourself. There’s just this normal mourning process of change that you know, how do we give people permission for that? Like this you’ve done something for many decades that now longer you can’t, your body is changed.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:42.764)
Of rhythm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:58.861)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:09.932)
Yeah, exactly. There there is grief. I think, you know, there is something to let go of as we age. You know, the you you’ve heard Snow White, right? The the myth of Snow White, the aging stepmother in this case, who is envious of the young person’s beauty, like
I if you don’t feel imbued with an inner life and an inner joy and an inner beauty, it can be really tough to lose youth. You know, to like, I’m I’m losing my power, I’m losing my ability to attract. You know, this is really frightening. But I think people who have matured, who are more secure, they can feel like, actually, you know, I I have something so much to give. And I I have honestly
Never walked into a room, George, and not felt like I’m the most interesting person in the room. You know, I have so many stories and so much to talk about. And, you know, I feel so alive on the inside. And I think that imbues people with attractiveness.
george (07:21.213)
We know like when you age, like I forget the saying y we all think we’re twenty years younger than we actually look, like our brains kinda lie to us. So it’s like we all know we’re ol ch getting older and changing. But I think there’s something definitive about metaphors, right? There’s there’s something really symbolic. Like it’s like says here we go, like you can’t deny this. Y you know, your body has officially changed and you are no longer the person you used to be. That person you really liked is no longer
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:28.589)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:39.96)
Absolutely.
Right.
Right.
george (07:51.15)
Here. And I just I want to do a better job of of giving space to clients or my partner, whoever else, and people that I love to like. We know when people are given the space to mourn, they can move through that process in an easier way. It’s when we can’t talk about it. We have to just cut it off and focus on other things that we get stuck in a lot of these places. And it I think it’s just really healthy to say, hey, listen, something has changed that you can see. And it’s symbolic of this trend.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:13.24)
Yeah.
george (08:21.023)
transition time. And I always love cultures that build, you know, you become a a teenager. Like they have rituals, things that allow people to transition into a new phase. And this is a new phase.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:22.464)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:33.74)
Yeah. And I I kind of appreciate that we’re in slightly different conversations, right? Because I am on the other side of having done that work. And so I’m trying to pull people to hope. And you’re trying to say to to women particularly, you know, it’s okay to experience, feel the loss. And of course I want them to be on the other side of that afterwards. And I know the hope. But I I appreciate your saying, okay, there’s a there’s a big thing that happens and
george (08:52.221)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:03.386)
you know, one of the things I know is that when two people together face something, it’s it’s much more bearable, right? And I I work with a lot of cancer patients who breast cancer patients who have gone through terrible loss, who are thrown into instant menopause because of the treatment. And so sometimes even young women who, you know, early forties, they’re suddenly
In menopause. And there’s so much grief about that. And it’s really the way the couple approaches it together that we know gives the most hope for success. So when her partner looks at her and says, You are beautiful. You are beautiful and desirable to me. Right? That gives her this, you know, sense of I am still worthy. I’m still attractive.
It’s the way they handle it together, George would say co-regulation, you know, the way they manage this together. And I think the same thing we can say to the couple, to the men who are listening, you can have a role in this healing. You can have a role in this transition that is so powerful for your partner to grieve, but then move on to the joyful part of you know being in menopause.
george (10:11.515)
Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:27.111)
And the the powerful place that that can bring her.
george (10:30.813)
Right. And this is really a shout out to men. Like I think women can’t help but feel it. It’s in their bodies. I think a lot of times men just they minimize it not intentionally because they just think, yeah, your body’s changing. My body’s changing. They don’t get the symbolic significance of the loss. And I think once I got that, I was like, my God, I have to do a better job in this area. I have not been as in aware and therefore could not be so intentional. But when I am, I could do exactly what Lori’s inviting, which is let’s face this together.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:51.533)
Right.
george (11:00.777)
Give your partner some space. You get to be the person who could show up for them and give them caregiving in the loss, in the sadness. So they don’t experience it alone. And before you know it, now they’re experienced the power of your connection with them in these place, these darker places.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:01.037)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:08.568)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:16.362)
Exactly. And I wanna just give a little bit of stats, which I know George likes stats. you know, so men do change. That’s true. They lose testosterone, George, at a rate of about one percent a year. So if you’re at l a level which is very normal for a man your age, let’s say six hundred nanograms per deciliter, you know, maybe you’ll lose six percent a year. But a woman
george (11:23.204)
Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:44.396)
Who doesn’t have near that testosterone at all, basically suddenly, within about a couple years’ time, loses precipitously most of her estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. The whole stew of relation of hormones that create that sense of aliveness in us physiologically go way, way, way, way down. So the cessation of
menstrual periods marks the fact that her hormones have radically changed. That’s why it’s so different for a woman compared to a man. Like like I had a a guy, he had prostate cancer and he went on the drug luprone, which absorbs all the testosterone in your body. And he’s like, I never knew what a body felt like without testosterone. This is what my wife’s body has felt like all the time.
And suddenly with a drug, he knew, you know, yesterday I felt full of life and optimism and that coursing sense of desire because I had so much testosterone. Today I have none of it. And my body feels different. And that’s what a woman goes through. Her body radically changes hormonally. Whereas a man, yeah, sure they’re changing, but it’s like very, very gentle and gradual.
george (12:57.681)
Yeah, it’s a
george (13:08.829)
It’s it’s a slow slope down, right? And that’s why it’s sometimes harder to relate to this abrupt change that really is measurable, right? And it it’s not in someone’s head. It’s it’s their body has just turned into a new body. And like it’s not only just the challenges of the new body, it’s the loss of the old body. So let’s talk about that, and especially in the bedroom when we come back.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:12.173)
Yeah, yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:17.195)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:23.605)
It’s not.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:31.99)
Yeah, exactly. I mean
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:37.93)
Okay. Okay.
george (13:45.65)
So we have this loss and we have this new future. And w Lori’s again, I love that she’s able to in her own life and her own example and helping so many people see hope in this time, which we’ll talk about. But let let’s really just take a couple of minutes to really shed some light into the into the bedroom of how this how menopause changes the game and
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:06.115)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:09.944)
Sure, sure.
george (14:11.358)
the loss of that too. The loss of sexual desire. The the amount that you had that that after period would give you. I mean, there’s another loss right there, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:20.482)
Yeah, exactly. So I mean there’s several things that are happening, right? There’s the hormonal loss, which impacts our sense of desire, because we know testosterone and for women, the combination of testosterone, estrogen and progesterone create that physiological sense of desire. We know that that is going to drop.
So physically she’s going to drop. There’s also going to be arousal problems, right? Because her vagina is going to be drier. Her vagina is going to you know be more delicate. And so she might have pain problems. She might have problems with dryness. She might have more bladder infections. She’s going to have hot flashes.
that lead to tiredness. And we know that many people when they’re tired, they don’t want to have sex. You know, all all of these are actually normal. So is slower arousal. So maybe you were a person who, you know, could get aroused fairly easily and suddenly you’re like, Wow, you know, it takes me a half an hour to get to where I used to be able to get to in ten, fifteen minutes. That’s still normal. But for her
It feels really different and communicating that to her partner feels really bad. And the worst one for me, George, is when women come in and they say, The mountain of my orgasm is now a molehill. Like like the actual power of orgasm can be reduced. I will say this is more rare, so that’s good news. But it does happen. And you know what? I’m so sorry, but I need to take a little break and go to the bathroom.
Let’s just remember that we we’ve already described all the physiological changes and we’ll come right back.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:58.552)
Are you there? Let me say one more just for the record. Another one, another symptom that happens in menopause that really impacts the bedroom is digestion. Digestion for women often slows way down. And I don’t know about your wife, but a lot of women say, you know, I just cannot even think about doing sex if my digestion is not working right. and that may seem like a little thing, but I have
george (17:59.442)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:27.702)
many, many girlfriends in menopause and they all complain about it, you know, and it really impacts your physiological state of readiness to want to have sex.
george (18:41.711)
Whaps.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:43.244)
Wow. Lots of lots of issues. Yeah. Yeah. But let’s let’s talk about that there are some solutions here. I I think
george (18:46.929)
Lots of issues.
george (18:55.335)
But before we jump to the solutions, I just want to give that space for these changes to suck and for you to miss your body and to feel like it’s betraying you and what is replacing it. And you know, that longing to have that young body that you might have been a little frustrated with, but it worked a lot better than this is in in certain areas. Right. So that’s just normal. We we we have a saying you always want to connect first before you stretch stretch people or try to kind of fix the
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:57.378)
Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:16.013)
Yeah.
george (19:23.793)
Like just meet them where they’re at. And, you know, this this sucks. And to find yourself a bit depressed, a bit down, you know, wishing you could go back in time. You know, I sexually I can I can’t imagine more than it’s more obvious than you’re laying there naked in a bed. Right. Then you’re you you you can’t get away from the fact of these changes. They’re right out in front of you. And I just want to, you know, really we want to b just give listeners the permission that it it’s okay that this sucks.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:23.821)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:46.111)
yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:52.532)
Exact and did I mention weight gain is so much easier in menopause? So many women put on fifteen pounds right around their middle because that’s kind of where it goes when you’re menopausal and that doesn’t you lose your waist and that’s you know, such a feminine shape. And so it it’s like, all of that can can be a downer. And I think I will say, right, as a couple, I think men can get really afraid. Like, does this mean I had a
a guy friend say, he was very angry. He’s like, all my men friends are saying that their wives say, Meh, I don’t really want it anymore. You know, and how enraging that would be because they’re not thinking about the we. They’re not thinking about the coupleship. They’re listening certainly to the cues of their body that say, I’m done with this. I I don’t need this.
george (20:36.509)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:45.986)
But they’re not listening to the needs of the coupleship. And I would say women in menopause still need physical touch. They st they can still have, usually, most of the time, even if you have problematic orgasms, we can find a way, and I work with women every day that I work them through this place where they’re stuck on orgasm and they can’t have as powerful an orgasm. And
I would say ninety nine percent of the time, George, I help them find one way that they can have as powerful of a orgasm as they used to. But I mean, it it is tough and I understand a partner feeling anxious and afraid and frustrated, but we gotta approach it together. We gotta be on each other’s teams.
george (21:35.014)
And it’s not
That different. It it is abrupt as you’re saying. But you know, men too decline. You know, you lose muscle, you get belly fat, your erection’s not as dependable. I mean, we we have similar changes that there’s loss to too. So again, just something to think about for for women. Like a lot of times men don’t know how to put words to this loss. They feel it, it’s in their bodies. They don’t feel the same sense of confidence. They they so that’s a loss, right? You don’t have that same sense of power, strength, vitality.
Things that were super dependable, your main way into connection. When that starts to wane, I mean, again, no wonder why some guys start to get depressed too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:06.307)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:13.974)
Right. And there can be problems into overlapping problems, right? He’s losing his erectile function. You know, she’s looking at him across the room thinking, he doesn’t have an erection. Maybe he’s not attracted to me anymore, because now I’m in menopause and I’m not as attractive as I was as a young woman. So she doesn’t bring the same sense of confidence to the bedroom. And he’s like, he needs that erotic confidence to get a heart on.
george (22:32.87)
Yeah.
george (22:36.733)
Yeah, I think.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:41.792)
Right. And he’s like, no, I don’t and then he maybe he stops initiating as much because he’s saying, I’m not working as well. I’m failing. I’m not much of a man because I can’t have a great erection instantly. They don’t necessarily flex together and say, Okay, this is what’s happening physiologically to us. How do we manage this? Like you need more stimulation? Great. I need more verbal reassurance that you still find me attractive. Great. Let’s do those things.
george (22:42.557)
Yeah.
george (23:11.389)
Well get us to some hope here, Lori, as we’re connecting to the loss, which is again appropriate. And I like the word, I like the idea of a transition. This is, you know, life changes. We go through, you know, you’re an adolescent, you turn into a young adult, you turn into life has all these transitions too, and then this is yet another one. And there’s loss to a transition, but there’s also opportunity.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:13.58)
Whoo!
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:35.348)
Exactly. Okay. So I’m gonna geek out on some sexual solutions for menopause, right? There’s changed physiology, there’s dryness in the vagina, delicate tissue. Girlfriend, you need vaginal estrogen. Almost every woman in menopause needs vaginal estrogen. And it’s very, very safe. Talk to your doctor. I’m not a medical doctor, but you know, whatever you might be afraid of, please get to a doctor who can explain.
How local vaginal estrogen is and what it can do to help your tissue stay alive, to prevent bladder infections, all of that. Hormone therapy, right? Talk to your doctor about if you’re a good candidate. Most women are. There was a big scare about 15 years ago with the Women’s Health Initiative. That has been disproved at this point in many, many points. So please talk about that. You probably need lubrication, artificial lubrication. We love Uber lube.
So think about Uber Lube as you know, who’s one of our sponsors, but I recommend Uber lube because I’ve used it for years myself. I’ve recommended it. I know how great it is. Also, vitamin E on the vulva. Find those little capsules in the store, a good quality, high quality vitamin E. Put a pin in the little capsule, squirt it onto your fingers, and rub it all over your vulva. especially if you’re a cancer, breast cancer or any kind of cancer person.
Who is where estrogen is disallowed. This comes very close to vaginal estrogen. And sex doesn’t have to mean penis and vagina. You know, maybe you’re having some pain problems. It can mean orgasms manually. It can mean anal sex. It can mean, you know, playing around and giving each other pleasure in other ways. It doesn’t always have to end that way, especially while you get the healing that you need. So if you’re having pain, I recommend run to the doctor.
Get the hormones that you need. You know, there’s also microablative vaginal laser treatments that are very helpful. D H E A. You need a good doctor referral. In my area, Dr. Polly Watson is a functional medicine doc and an OBGYN. And you have to come into the state to see her, but I think she can see you out of state. Otherwise, she’s she’s smarter than God. And she’s been on she’s been on our show. And
george (25:54.482)
Mm-hmm.
So yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:58.102)
With lower desire, one of the problems in menopause, right, is with the moods that are changing so much, George. Many doctors say, Well, let’s put you on an SSRI, which we know a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor like Lexapro or Prozac totally kills desire in women. And then in there in menopause, and you’re gonna put her on an SSRI to help her moods, I’m like, There’s gotta be another way. And there are other drugs that you can use. So if you’re on an SSRI and you go like, I have no libido, no kidding.
No kidding. And you know what? Men, when they’re about 50, 60, I I don’t like them on SSRIs either because it it can impact their desire as well. So again, think about hormone therapy, replacement. Also, testosterone is sometimes an option for women, you know. And I think particularly we need to know when we want to have sex, you know, nighttime. I was a nighttime sex person.
george (26:28.519)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:55.606)
All my life I loved orgasms at night. I loved making love at the end of the day. You know, that was my my time to connect and to feel comfortable going to sleep that way. I can’t do that anymore. I’m I’m exhausted at the end of the day. So I’m now a morning person. You know, it’s like th this is much better. So find what works.
george (27:18.802)
And that to me is also the opportunity because of these changes. You know, both people can show up in a bedroom with a little bit new moves. I think a lot of men do become more emotional. Like we have more downtime, we’re retired, you know, there’s more vacation time, there’s more conversation time, you know, there’s more massages, there’s more touches. There’s just, you know, we’re bringing in other elements than just the the sexual that physical part, right? When you’re more emotional, spiritual, vulnerable, like all these different elements.
elements now become more relevant. We can’t depend so solely on our testosterone. So we develop all these other things. And I I I see so many couples that thrive in this period because they’re having, they’re actually having the most we sex.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:01.314)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:05.494)
Right, exactly. And we want to give them, you know, you said the magic word massages. You know, we want to give people permission to say, I don’t feel anything. I need more. I need to come into my body. A massage is a beautiful way to get there. You can start sex, you can start a sexual encounter occult. Like your body, it’s going to have more trouble feeling aroused earlier. So
Many times I mean, this is true for me. I have great mental desire, but physiologically, sure. My body is like every other woman’s body. It it takes a long time to get warmed up. And so massage is a beautiful way to come into your senses, to connect to your partner and to let your body warm. Right? Because it’s it’s harder to you know, you’re starting from zero and you gotta get there.
george (29:03.368)
And it’s pretty cool to see when the goal changes from orgasm to connection, how people could have success even if they don’t have orgasm. Right? That they if the if the idea is to connect and to cuddle and to be physical and maybe something happens, but if it doesn’t, you could laugh about it. That’s still a good night for both people.
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:23.63)
Yeah, for both people, you know, right. I mean, sometimes it’s your night, sometimes it’s not your night. it’s okay. You know, that being naked together releases oxytocin and so we feel this deep connection. But speaking of slower arousal, George, vibrators, you know, what used to be a toy is now a tool in menopause. It’s like it’s often really needed.
to get there and that’s okay and that’s good and it can be playfully introduced and enjoyed.
george (29:56.86)
need some vibrator sponsorship because it’s that’s but anyway this is it
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:59.148)
We do. We do. Yeah. And and let me just let me say a couple more things. I know we’re running out of time here, but you know, when you have reduced power of orgasm, you probably need multiple stimulations. So it’s talking dirty, maybe, you know, while your partner is touching you.
G spot and clitoral stimulation at the same time, kissing your breasts and having intercourse at the same time, using a vibrator while you’re having all of those multiple stimulating ways kind of help bring back the power of orgasm. So, and last thing, those recurrent GI problems that also are recurrent UTI problems, talk to your doctor because actually hormone replacement helps with that. Vaginal estrogen helps with that.
There’s a over-the-counter drug called D manos. D manos that’s preventative for UTIs. It’s proven. It’s scientifically proven. Not cranberry juice, not cranberry extract. I recommended that for years and I was wrong. It’s D manos. Okay, so bring us home, George.
george (31:14.014)
There’s plenty of room for the loss, for the sadness, and also hope for the opportunity.
Laurie Watson, PhD (31:19.744)
Absolutely. Thanks for listening.
george (31:22.77)
Keep it hot, y’all.
