Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode, Laurie is joined by EFT couples therapist Jef Slootmaekers. Jef is an EFT trainer hailing from Belgium and is the author of a new book on shame called Shame in Psychotherapy: The Art of Appearing (English translation coming in September 2026). He is also the coauthor of Fighting for Connection: Perspectives on Conflict and Intimate Partner Violence This fantastic episode starts with the question “If shame had a voice, what would it want us to understand about being human?” and dives deep into our need to belong to each other, the ways we experience shame, its healthy functions and how toxic core shame is developed. All persons feel shame but our response to shame can either be adaptive or create negative stories that organize and influence our relationships with ourselves and others.
Walk through this conversation with Laurie and Jef to learn the healthy functions of shame, why living in a world without shame would be like driving around New York City without traffic lights. Learn how to recognize unhealthy shame and ways to uncondition yourself from the rigid stories it has created. We all need to feel safe and belong and this conversation helps shine a light in the dark places we keep to ourselves but can also keep us stuck. This conversation brings a lightness and hope to what can be a heavy topic and you’ll walk away with action steps on how to begin healing toxic shame. Take care Brave Lovers!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD
Dear all, I am bringing to you from Belgium EFT trainer Jeff Schlutmachers, and he is an author and an a trainer and he has his own private practice. And today, his first book, Fighting for Connection: Perspectives on Conflict and Intimate Partner Violence by Rutledge is on pre-sale. So you can go ahead and buy that today. And we are going to talk though about his second book, which is currently published in Dutch.
Shame in Psychotherapy, The Art of Appearing. and Jeff, I am so honored that you have agreed to join me today and talk about these talk about shame, which is so important to our listeners. Thank you so much for being with us.
Jef Slootmaeckers (05:32.681)
It’s an honor to that you invited me in to talk to you. Really, thank you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:37.229)
You’re so welcome. And I have I met Jeff and I met at the summit in Amsterdam not in Amsterdam, in Harlem, right? And that was a couple of years ago now, the EFT summit. And I was privileged to be with him in a highly conflictual situation, a place where people had been brokenhearted really.
Jef Slootmaeckers (05:49.717)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:06.167)
And I watched his care and work for people and I was I was very touched by that. And so I’m I just am glad to bring you to our listeners.
Jef Slootmaeckers (06:21.073)
Wow.
Yeah, I still get goosebumps remembering that moment. And I think if you mention the heartbreaks that were happening at that moment, that still travels with me. But also, Laurie, it was really, really, it meant a lot to me that…
I wasn’t alone and that we teamed up and you were there and George was there and others were there too but we teamed up and yeah that will stay with me and yeah thanks for that moment.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:58.839)
That’s good. That is so good. Okay, tell okay, break for just one second. I’ve now lost the sentence that we wanted to begin with. Can you tell me what it was?
Jef Slootmaeckers (07:13.381)
It’s something with the shame. was the… If shame would want us to know something about shame, what would it be? Something like that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:24.653)
Okay, okay. Okay. I I would love to begin talking about the the new book that you have published and it’s about shame. I think, you know, this is such a universal feeling and it’s such a human feeling and it’s such a painful thing to feel.
So can you help us a little bit about if shame were trying to tell us something, what would it be trying to tell us?
Jef Slootmaeckers (07:58.932)
Well, yeah, that’s a really excellent question with a multi-layered answer. I wish that we could talk about shame in like a simple way, but I’m afraid that will not be possible. taking a moment to reflect upon what you asked me is to voice a little bit the wisdom of shame. And I think it’s so multi-layered, but…
At the top of my head, think four layers come to mind. And the first one you already mentioned, you know, it’s a human feeling. So I think the first wisdom of in our layer of really grasping shame is that we should really consider shame as an adaptive emotions and that we should really go back to his core function given to us by evolution.
So that would be a first layer that shame, if we want to understand shame and shame wants to be seen by us and understood, we need to understand that it’s a very adaptive emotion. Painfully, yes, but adaptive. has a really, it has a function for us as a human being. But that’s the second layer. I think shame can lose that.
adaptive function and become rigid. And then we talk, then we, then it transform, it transforms to like what I’ve called core shape.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:36.773)
Mm. Mm-hmm. So there’s there’s that’s the second layer. So the first layer is it’s a human emotion. This the second part is that it transforms and is that right? It transforms into something that could be rigid. Is that what you’re saying? Uh-huh. And you go.
Jef Slootmaeckers (09:39.251)
So that’s the second layer, yeah.
Jef Slootmaeckers (09:56.714)
Exactly. And then, yeah.
Well, and so, and then it can loses the adaptive function and then it blocks growth. Right. And that’s, that’s where it’s extremely painful. But what shame also wants us to know is that once core shame is there and it lives in relationships and we’re ending human bodies, it becomes an organizing principle in how we.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:05.645)
Mm. Mm. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Jef Slootmaeckers (10:32.297)
grow and how we develop and how the self evolves but also how it organizes relationships. So basically it’s organisable and predictable.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:45.765)
Mm, that’s good news. That’s good news. Yeah. Yeah. Because I I think, you know, just in my own life, my own experience, the feeling shame is it you know, I wanna get as far away from it as I can.
Jef Slootmaeckers (10:47.751)
That’s really good news indeed.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:04.501)
you know, to move away. As I to when you suggest that there’s something to listen to and to hear and to learn from, I mean it feels hopeful, but it also frankly feels a little scary to me. It’s like, no, what am I going to learn?
Jef Slootmaeckers (11:05.478)
Exactly.
Jef Slootmaeckers (11:21.149)
Well, hopefully, some human recognizable things, right? Because if we dive into shame, at first it can be scary. It might feel like, what am going to learn? But you know what? Here’s the thing what we do in psychotherapy. So also in this conversation, well, let’s zoom out a little bit. And before we dive in, let’s get it organized. What do you think? So let’s see it and…
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:45.395)
Okay. Okay. That sounds good.
Jef Slootmaeckers (11:50.034)
and get to know shame from a distance and slowly, find their way in. then knowing how to get it organized is really, really meaningful and it’s really helpful for me. But that would be the fourth point is that in my journey, like for years now, I’m working with shame. Bottom up, I’m just working with people suffering from shame. I just listen to them.
recorded the sessions and I did the research, like the studying, like what’s literature telling me, but also what are the real experts telling me, which are my clients, right? And the fourth layer is that really was a game changer for me, is that I learned that shame comes with a proactive attachment strategy that we easily overlook in psychotherapy. And once we understand that,
It’s so much easier to organize shame dynamics and that proactive strategy is perfectionism and adaptation. And if you can really see that, how it all makes sense and how it’s all combined, we can start organizing shame in, in patterns and in negative interaction loops.
and then we’re home again, right? As a psychotherapist and an EFT-er. So it’s just about that missing puzzle piece. And I think shame wants us to understand, or at least from my perspective, my clients said to me, Jeff, write the book because it really helps engaging with the shame.
that exactly if you feel the shame you want to stay away from it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:47.465)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I love this. I love this. Tell tell me could could we begin with an example of shame? I I I will, if you want me to be your guinea pig, or you can just offer us an example of what would that look like in a person and go from there.
Jef Slootmaeckers (14:11.113)
And then you meaning the adaptive shame or the core shame?
Jef Slootmaeckers (14:18.697)
Well, adaptive shame, there’s so, so, so many, right? Because, well, I’ll give you an example, right, in a minute. But first, let’s just explain briefly what I mean with adaptive shame. Shame is a core effect, a universal core effect that lives in our system, that function as a brake on all the other.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:32.269)
Please, please.
Jef Slootmaeckers (14:48.073)
core effects. So for example, to make it very specific, and this is an area that you’re way more familiar with than I am, let’s take the sexual pleasure and excitement. Excitement is also a core effect, right? We all people, all people can get excited and in the sexual channel. Imagine that that, that that effect is activated. You know how that is, right? Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:13.537)
Yes. So we we feel excited. Yes.
Jef Slootmaeckers (15:18.213)
excited and that effect makes us move and then it becomes an emotion right we’re just going to look for you know sexual pleasure and and imagine that your system is activated around the excitement in the sexual reality
And imagine then there is no shame. That would be terrible for us as human beings because then once it’s activated we go outside and we’re aroused constantly and there is no break.
So we have those emotions and it’s not only excitement or sexual orientation, it’s also anger, but it’s also sadness and it’s also joy and we got those core effects. And shame is vital because it informs us and it helps us to feel where does that…
How is it still suitable in this specific relational context to be driven by those effects? If you’re with your partner and you’re private and you’re in that sexual area, it’s okay to let your system be driven by joy and pleasure. But if you’re in a work context,
That’s not appropriate. So shame comes exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:44.243)
Okay, right. We we need shame. We need shame at a as a functioning restraint.
that helps us then channel our good affect in ways that it will be appropriately met versus, you know, just just feeling sexual s excitement, which we could in many, many situations, but we wouldn’t act or express that because shame blocks us from doing that appropriately, right? It it informs us here it’s not appropriate.
Jef Slootmaeckers (17:19.695)
And this is key. Shame helps us to feel.
where our emotions and the way we are driven or moved by our emotions. Shame helps us to feel the context around us. So actually it helps us to stay attuned with the way I’m moving right now. Is it appropriate in this group that I want to belong to?
And that’s super cool. So there is no growth without belonging,
We need our tribe, need our family, we need our group and we need to know how to adapt and attune to not only what I need or what the other one needs but what the group expects from us. And this is where SHAME is super super adapted.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:20.565)
Yeah, it informs us absolutely. I I work, I will say, sometimes with people who have sexual compulsivity. And that’s missing sometimes. The the appropriate shame of how this can be expressed. it it’s it’s absent.
Yeah. And so and and so they not only get in trouble in their relationships, but sometimes they get in trouble with the law, you know, because th they they they’re not shame doesn’t inform the way they move in in the group in our society. Yeah.
Jef Slootmaeckers (18:44.934)
It’s absent,
Jef Slootmaeckers (19:00.489)
Mm-hmm.
Jef Slootmaeckers (19:03.913)
So looking at that, or hearing you giving that example, then you got… I’m just picturing myself, the person talking to you about it, and actually what he’s lacking is that adaptive piece that helps him or her to… besides that inner motivation that gets activated.
But balancing that with like, okay, if I’m just moving in that direction, how will that then compete? Or what will the impact be on my social belonging here? And being able to navigate that, we need shame for that, right? And we actually use shame in helping our kids grow. There is no way we can help our kids grow up in this world without shame.
It’s like being in a city without traffic lights.
But it’s a shameful experience, but it leads to growth.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:10.881)
Right. It helps them develop a way that they can fit in, that they can belong, because we know we need each other, we need that to survive. And so as we teach our children, of course, there are times that we must, you know, introduce shame to their behavior. It’s it’s appropriate. Yes, yes.
Jef Slootmaeckers (20:29.745)
It’s appropriate. That’s what we do. And usually now you said something very, very important, Laurie. We need to put shame and we can use shame so that people navigate their inner motivation related to the belonging and so they can stay themselves in the bigger group and the group and parents and humans will use shame once there is behavior.
That is not so appropriate. Shame lives in people, but it’s a group dynamic in order for us to survive and so that that group can function as a group. So behavior that threatens the belonging will be shamed and that’s adaptive and it’s extremely painful and it has to be painful for us.
to move away from the behavior and adapt. So that’s the healthy process. Yeah. Okay. But here is the difference. Because due to unsafety and insecure attachment dynamics, there is a shift that can happen that no longer the behavior gets shamed. But what if your emotions get shamed? That’s something else.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:32.215)
Yes. To be to be corrective. To be corrective it has to be painful, yeah.
Jef Slootmaeckers (21:58.462)
What we know from attachment strategy, from attachment theory, is that attachment strategies will come alive. Protesting, numbing, withdrawal, combinations of that. And what if that behavior that comes with that attachment strategy will be shamed as well? That’s where it gets tricky. Because it’s no longer something that you did.
It’s what you feel that is a source of shame that does not belong. If you then protect yourself with the strategies that are given to you by nature and you show protest or you show withdrawal feeling like, you’re not there for me and I doubt that I’m no longer good. And instead of the group picks up that signal and reassures you, hey, what you did is maybe wrong.
but we still love you. And you get repeatedly the response, what you feel and the way you react here as a person and what you need as a person, that does not belong. Then it’s not the behavior that is corrected, but it’s your core being. It’s your emotional system and your needs being ashamed by the group.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:22.495)
Yes, I I think about I’m a grandmother and so I am helping with grandchildren and it is the greatest delight of my life, Jeff. you know, with as a parent, of course I loved my children, but there’s there’s a different pressure in parenting than there is in grandparenting and and one of the questions that I get just as a sex therapist is, you know, what do you do when a child is masturbating? What do you do when a child is masturbating in
Jef Slootmaeckers (23:33.747)
Hmm, wonderful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:52.419)
the living room, for instance, you know, and of course what we want to do is we we want to curb the public behavior of masturbation, but we also want to preserve the excitement and joy that the child feels and the discovery of their body’s pleasure. And so many people
you know, that are uninformed perhaps and frightened by a child masturbating in public, don’t know what to do. You know, they will have an outrage, they will tell the child you’re being bad, stop touching yourself, don’t do this, right? And they shame the behavior appropriately. But without kind of a reparative instruction that says, Honey, this is something that everybody does, that it feels very good, but it’s something that needs to be done in private.
own bedroom. Like and and preserving that sense of sexual pleasure as a good. we we we grow up, I’m I think what you’re saying is is sometimes if that is not appropriately done, then the child starts to feel shame about the emotion of excitement, the the sense of sexual pleasure instead of just the public behavior. Am I getting it?
Jef Slootmaeckers (25:15.483)
Exactly, and this is a really really vivid
Jef Slootmaeckers (25:21.659)
example, know that really you can see like if you’re telling the story you can feel how adaptive and needed it is to shame some of the behaviors but then safeguard that that core of the self of that young person, right?
and make the distinction. This is not new for psychotherapists and for good parenting, right? This is make the distinction between what you do and who you are, right? But when it comes to, especially with these topics, when parents or groups are overwhelmed and they’re shocked and they don’t have the time to reflect upon these, right? They will react immediately and they will shame behaviors, but also underline…
needs and that’s where it gets tricky. And you know what? It’s not with one… this is also very very important if you want to understand core shame is how it how it develops. It’s not with one big experience relationally. It’s like when that happens repetitively, And we know what will happen with the kid there that you’re describing.
It will adapt, it will feel very insecure. And so the attachment system will come alive and will say, am I still lovable? And do I still belong? And am I still good enough for you? All those teams will come alive and they will get hyper-activated or deactivated. And so it’s not only that they were masturbating in public. Now they adapt, but they’re in attachment stress. And so they’re not their normal self.
So what will happen in groups often, in small groups like families, they will say, and now you stop, now you stop being sad or don’t be so frustrated about it. Now you go to your room. So now we have being shamed on a specific behavior leads to uncertainty. And when that attachment, stress and pain is also being shamed, the self starts to believe it’s not only my behavior.
Jef Slootmaeckers (27:40.316)
It’s my core needs of safety. It’s my core needs of belonging. It’s my core need of being human. And we start to believe it’s me who is in the core, not okay. And this is the typical core shame voice, right? It’s me. It’s my fault. I’m bad. I am the one who dysregulates.
the balance and the harmony of the family or of the classroom.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:12.171)
In the family, yes. I’m the one who I’m the one who caused this and and without explanation, without the tender repair, the child internalizes that as essentially, I am bad, right?
Jef Slootmaeckers (28:30.537)
And that.
And then we’re going for the third and the fourth point. Remember that in essence, healthy shame is about adaptation. It’s all about adapting. If shame is activated, it puts a brake on our expression of who we are, and it says, adapt, so that we can…
Keep on that we can like we can preserve and protect our belonging so we need to adapt that’s that’s really the healthy adaptive function of well shame Core shame will do exactly the same it will say it will say to us adapt who you are Adapt who you are and so we lose connection with the cells
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:20.395)
Yes. Yes. my goodness, yes. This is you know, you talked about the anxiously attached and the avoidantly attached reactions that are protective. and that those can also be shamed. That and you know, I think about in EFT how careful we are to
not shame those reactions, but to validate them, to understand them, which I think what you’re what you drive what I’m hearing which feels so helpful to me is that as we understand them, the the need to protect ourselves in this way, that then the person’s internal shame can kind of be unraveled, that their needs can be seen.
as legitimate as as potentially even good, but well maybe you can help me understand this further because I’m suddenly lost. hel help me with that. Like how do how do we do that? And then of course eventually how do we do that with each other?
Jef Slootmaeckers (30:37.075)
Yeah, and it just makes so much sense that if we try to talk about shame that all of a sudden we get lost. And so I probably this will happen in a couple of minutes with myself too. You this is what shame does, right? It just distracts us from seeing the core, right? Because in the core, it will, we will start to feel that we are.
We don’t belong. This is my empathic conjecture to really access the shame layer. It’s all about to me about, hey, it’s not about the other not being there for you. It’s not about you don’t feel that you’re no longer good to that other person. It’s the fear that you no longer belong to the bigger group, to even humanity, society, have small groups, big groups, but to help you out. think one of the points that you’re making
that you realize.
Jef Slootmaeckers (31:35.559)
that EFT is really a de-shaming process because we validate attachment strategies so much. That is really, really, really the case indeed, right?
Jef Slootmaeckers (31:48.938)
And, but at the same time, it can get tricky as well. Right. And, and for us to, to understand, um, where it can get so tricky is to really organize a little bit more what that, uh, uh, what that core shame process usually looks like because they don’t show up anxious, avoid it or, you know,
they show up with adaptation. So here is, that’s why the book is called The Art of Appearing. So let’s just slow it down a little bit. Imagine that core shame and it’s a good metaphor and it lacks a little bit. There are some bad elements with it, but for clarity, okay, the metaphor is this, the core of a self compared with an apple.
Laurie Watson, PhD (32:25.822)
Mm. Okay, tell me, tell me. Yes, yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (32:39.435)
Mm-hmm.
Jef Slootmaeckers (32:47.875)
And the core of the apple believes to be rotten. So can you imagine an apple you slice it into, you look at the core and it’s brown and not juicy. It believes to be brown. you know, that apple will adapt, adapt and it will do one typical thing. It will prevent that that core will be visible at the outside.
Because once at the outside, your outer layer, when you become visible and somebody sees that brown spot on the skin of the apple on the outside, you know what happens if you see an apple in your fruit basket rotten at the outside? You need to throw it out.
Laurie Watson, PhD (33:40.031)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I need I’ll I will be thrown out. If people see this this what I believe is in my core, I I mean this is the terror of shame, right? I will be thrown out, I will be excommunicated, I will be shunned from my marriage, from my family, from the world.
Jef Slootmaeckers (34:04.987)
I will do whatever it takes to hide my core. But it’s not only about this, because we think a lot about shame is the self that doesn’t want to be with the self. So it’s a lot of distance, right? Self to self. It comes with a huge distance and an avoiding of the own experiences. Yes. But above all, it doesn’t want to be seen by others because that’s the terror.
And so it just numbs and hits, hides the core, being immersed in shame for others and self, and start to rely on perfectionism. It will show to the relationships as I’m a perfect apple.
And especially in the Western societies with individualistic world, big time, right? We all wanna be like part of, we hide the shame and we’re all like, yeah, the norms are extremely high, right? And probably it’s part of just like belonging. There are norms that we have to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (35:14.645)
Mm. Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (35:22.337)
And and the norms are higher in in our day and age because of social media and and the the falseness of the appearance right in social media. So so when we see, my gosh, I I can’t I I am nothing like that and and we already feel defective and rotten to our core, right? I I have to perform now in order to be accepted. I I think
I if you could help me see what would happen in a marriage, like
you know, when like just for instance, because, you know, all about sex here, but i if something goes wrong in my sexual relationship, maybe I start to feel unattractive, undesirable, there’s something really, really wrong with me. and then wha what do I how am I going to manage this? Like, where does it go inside? Like, my gosh, I
I I will not be loved by my partner. I can’t even I can’t even share this with my best girlfriends, you know.
Jef Slootmaeckers (36:40.937)
Here is what you do.
Like many talking for a couple of years with like people suffering from shame. Yeah, of course, but I’ve had a conversation about all those kinds of sexual areas too and difficulties. So exactly what you’re saying. Imagine you feel your own desires or fantasies or what you really, you know, your fantasies and there is this shame voice saying
Who are you? That is really bad. You’re ugly, right? Then you will just for a very long time try to adapt and disown your own needs, right? And you want to make sure that nobody sees it, right? So for a very long time, partners will not even notice. We will just even, a lot of people will just, for example, out loud in groups will judge.
and say bad things about those pieces that they actually long for themselves, but they are ashamed of. they will not identify themselves with that. But that longing is still there. So in a certain kind of way, it finds its way out. So what people do often is they will try to find support.
in their adaptive strategy in that falseness of the appearance, right? They want to protect the appearance. And this is where drugs and this is where medication and this is where addiction comes in to in both ways in trying not to feel what they actually feel that is immersed in the shame, but also to have the energy, the uppers to
Laurie Watson, PhD (38:30.239)
Addiction. Yeah.
Jef Slootmaeckers (38:45.331)
to keep on functioning the way they think they have to in their adaptive, protective, perfectionistic strategy.
Laurie Watson, PhD (38:55.083)
Yeah. I I see this and I I really see this, Jeff.
Because I’m a bit older, so I tend to see more middle aged couples. And what you’re saying is so true that that the adaptation to cover these deep, deep fears about the rotten core are subtle. They’re over time. And we wonder, you know, why does why is sex so off by middle age? You know, but there’s there are these things that
if we could have a movie to see the little moments all the way through. The the slow evolution of getting to this point in the eventual marriage where sex maybe is not happening anymore or somebody has withdrawn completely. like there’s so much and I’m so aware of that.
of those little moments all the way through that this is expressed and then voila they come in you know we’re sexless and middle-aged and don’t understand but you’re saying all the way through there have been they have maybe identified with things that they’re afraid of put them out there but not really talked about the inner world of what they’re experiencing
Jef Slootmaeckers (40:19.176)
No.
Jef Slootmaeckers (40:22.653)
No. And that is… So usually for a very long time, indeed, those people will… It’s interesting, right? Just even in my own surroundings, amongst men, It’s probably the same where women’s not about the gender, but in my world, you know? It’s so interesting. Put the group of men together and…
The adaptive strategy is that they’ll talk about sex as if they have a lot of healthy sex. And that is how it should be. Maybe I’m talking about Belgian situation here, but that’s what… Okay, good, good. That’s good news for the Belgian people. They do belong to the bigger group here. That’s good. That’s good. Yes, fantastic.
Laurie Watson, PhD (41:06.508)
no, I I think you’re talking I’m very familiar with this too.
yes. Yes they do. Yes they do.
Jef Slootmaeckers (41:18.749)
But you know what? But then they leave the conversation, And they had, they adapted well. And then they were all joking and laughing. And then they walk away from that group to their home. And this is where the shame kicks in. The way I appeared in that group is not me. And I was joking and mocking with people who have…
less or no sex in the marriage and we were joking. So we were actually joking about me, but I cannot talk about that. Because if I will show that to that group, they will start laughing with me and I will be expelled. So being seen in the self is the main trigger of core shame. so attachment strategy number one is make sure that they only see the perfect version of you.
But that leads to a huge build up of stress, pain, doubt, fear and unmet needs. So what people will do, and this is an important puzzle piece in the organization, they will try to lower the stress, the pain, the fear. This is where addiction comes in. This is where hard work comes in. This is where, you know, it…
Compulsive behaviors come in, is where gaming comes in, this is where all the things that regulate their fear and they cannot rely on attachment figures. Because then they become visible, so they have to find their way to other resources. And another way of getting rid of that inner pressure…
is to find hidden places where the unmet attachment needs can be released. And as we’re talking about sex related themes, prostitution, porn, you know, they find the way hidden from all the other to find expression of their needs. And they find the relief. And after the moment, terror comes in. What if somebody would see?
Jef Slootmaeckers (43:34.823)
they would see that I’m rotten and I will be expelled.
Laurie Watson, PhD (43:37.171)
Mm. Expelled. Yes. Yes. it’s it I I ache for what you just described.
You know, this I I see this so much in social situations and in people who come in and talk to me, they say I’ve never really talked about sex and my sexual experience. I mean, of course I’ve I’ve joked with my friends, but what you describe is is is just what I’m afraid of, right? This this joking, this this public persona, the false self that is out there only serves as a description.
between what other what I imagine other people are experiencing, what I am experiencing, and I’ve I’ve pretended along with everybody else that this is who I am too. I’m having lots of great wild sex, you know, and and then I come home and I have no idea like how to actually have this thing that I’ve pretended that I’m having.
To connect and to attach to my partner in a way that is deeply sexual, deeply emotional. And I’m it must be me, right? I must be so defective. And then the hiding comes, like, okay, but I do have sexual needs, I do long to be desired and wanted.
And so then they go into hiding with with other behaviors or or just compulsions, you know, I’ll sublimate this this deep dreadful fear into working so hard or having a perfect home or or managing perfect children. I mean, we can pass it right on to the next generation, you know.
Jef Slootmaeckers (45:30.229)
You just gave me the booze gums, booze bumps. English, third language. A little bit hard moments but you know what? Just stay with the experience here. Good, but I’ll stay with the experience because you know what? You started to talk and here is where EFT and the power of EFT comes in. The way you reflected.
Laurie Watson, PhD (45:33.453)
The goosebumps. I like booscumps.
Jef Slootmaeckers (45:57.064)
back here to the audience and also to me, I was like listening to as if I was your patient or your client. And there’s something with that tone of voice that the way you said it is so accepted. It’s just so normalizing. And this is what is so key with people immersed in shame. Their brain is listening. Their nervous system is listening.
know, faster than every heartbeat is tracking. Is there a tone of voice? It’s not about what you say. Is there a tone of voice that makes me feel that you will look at me as if I don’t belong? But there is something in the way you just with that EFT reflection that you build coherence around it that makes it understandable that my, even if we call it my false self.
And the way is a protective move to not lose your belonging. And this is a big entry point for us as EFTers and we lack that language. And so this is my new mission. I had the mission on the domestic violence, but I got the new mission because the same way clients telling me what a relief it is if we help them feel belong and reflect and validate.
Okay, there is this, in this case, these sexual desires and areas and it makes you move the way you move and it makes you do what you do and you’re ashamed about it. But beside that, can we also track your adaptation strategies? Can we track how much effort you put in preserving your belonging and not this regulating your group? Can we also talk about
Because I think you put a lot of energy in trying not to be seen. Yes, that’s one thing. But not wanting to be seen is also you taking care of the stability of the group, right? You don’t want to dysregulate the group, your marriage, your family with what you need.
Jef Slootmaeckers (48:19.847)
And that is super powerful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (48:21.899)
And then a and then because of that fear of dysregulating the group or the family or our marriage, then we can’t get our needs met. And it just goes on and on and on.
Jef Slootmaeckers (48:34.697)
It goes on and on and on. And here is another piece of the puzzle is it’s when the perfectionistic strategy loses its function. All of a sudden we become visible. The partner, family member, colleagues at work, friends, all of a sudden they see, hey, you were showing your false self from the psychodynamic language, right? From the false self. Like you were, you were not really, you were…
Hey, who are you? What are you the one? And that scares the hell out of them. And at that moment, we’ve got very intense shame reactions, which I consider then as the second reactive coping strategies of shame. The one is proactive, right? I’m just constantly investing in myself and the way others see me so I can be part of the bigger group and I…
don’t have to be afraid that they will see me so that they will expel me or that they will take away my belonging. But once I feel seen, they go in really disorganized behaviors. And we often think about trauma at that moment because that’s what we see with trauma, disorganization, but with shame, core shame, they will use all the strategies.
at once they will just use them all in order to deal with that big trigger being seen in their core.
Laurie Watson, PhD (50:11.731)
Mm. Mm. Okay. You you have to help us now. Like help us with a situation. How do we get through this so that revealing ourselves, our worries, about who we are, the the core self, can can come forward and we can be healed. I I and I I wanna say a personal example.
my husband is is often very good at revealing sort of things that he’s he’s done wrong or big problems or something and and sometimes I listen to him talking about this with other people and I think
wow, like I don’t think I would be able to say that so freely. Like you you talk about these things that I know you’re ashamed of, but you confess them, talk about them, share them, you know, and it’s it’s I really admire this part of him that he’s willing to be seen as flawed in front of other people. Like and and and I know his childhood. You know, I I know how difficult it was.
But he’s able to kind of do some of that more than I am. You know, just it it’s really a beautiful thing that he that he allows he allows these things to be open. Not everything, of course, and we’re still working and everybody always says, you all must have such a perfect marriage and your sex life must be so perfect. And of course we struggle just like anybody else, but
Jef Slootmaeckers (52:01.609)
That’s a really interesting example and also a bit tricky for me because I really don’t know your husband and your life so it’s a bit hard to… but can I… I’ll…
Laurie Watson, PhD (52:10.305)
You’re right. Sure, sure.
Jef Slootmaeckers (52:16.937)
I’ll turn it towards me then, right? That feels maybe more safe. Because I do recognize something about that dynamic.
Jef Slootmaeckers (52:31.163)
of being open about the vulnerabilities. But hey, I live in a world where if you want to belong, you talk openly about self and emotions. And here is where it gets like really tricky and especially if you work with therapists, right? It’s really, it’s an extremely functional strategy.
that I also had to learn for myself. Sometimes in some groups I’m so open and being open is my perfectionistic adaptive strategy in staying hidden.
Jef Slootmaeckers (53:16.103)
And I had many, yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (53:17.013)
That’s complicated. Let me let me make sense of that. You your world actually rewards vulnerability and openness. And you’re saying, so I I practice that, but maybe ironically, sometimes practicing that hides the true self, the the real feelings inside. Yes.
Jef Slootmaeckers (53:38.533)
Exactly. at moments when all of a sudden I feel seen in that part that I’m hiding, my system really falls apart.
Jef Slootmaeckers (53:58.698)
And then I do all kinds of strategies. I’ll become very angry at myself, I become angry towards others, I push them away, I want to get out of there, or I go completely numb. And that, you know, in a very intense way makes me move in all kinds of strategies that you just don’t want to be there.
So just to repeat a little bit the same dynamic, but a little bit less subtle, I have a client, a couple here. And they came in with aggressive outbursts.
The man was like really suffering from the couple, suffering from aggressive outbursts. And actually we’ve been doing the work around how we can understand aggression in a dyadic process, right? But that was not really what was happening. It was not so much about the fear of abandonment or being overwhelmed, the feeling of not being good enough. Something else was happening. And also here there was this deep longing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (55:01.483)
Yeah, yeah.
Jef Slootmaeckers (55:17.939)
for this man to have a certain kind of sexual pleasure with his lady and he really felt so ashamed about him longing for that. So he never showed that openly. But he had a kind of secret life where he started to engage with the porn and he went to the clubs and he had this secret life that he kept well, well, well hidden.
And all of a sudden that became visible in that dynamic. And she of course confronted him with like, I don’t even recognize you. Who are you? What have you been doing for such a long time? See, and this is where the crack happens. The perfectionistic adaptive strategy that keeps the core hidden, cracks open, and you’re vulnerable and visible to your core.
Laurie Watson, PhD (55:58.891)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jef Slootmaeckers (56:16.423)
to a place that you have experienced so much shame from the others before and now you risk a lot. So what happened with this man? He attacked in a very disorganized way because he attacked this lady and he pushed her away and it was really about distancing her so that she would not look at him anymore or that the…
his shame piece is no longer visible and he also started really attacking her, shaming her in all the pieces that she did wrong because if she would, if the anger and aggressive behaviour would make her see at her own shame he would no longer be so visible with his core
And then he took off for a week or two.
Jef Slootmaeckers (57:18.865)
And it’s very hard if you have those situations in your office and you’re working with a couple because it’s very highly reactive and it’s really hard to make sense out of it and it takes usually a lot of time. recognizing it as maybe you became visible. And let us talk a little bit about how much effort did you…
that you put in not becoming visible so that you would protect your relationship. Can we talk about that?
and at the same time you were hiding your own needs.
in a kind of secret world, right? But all that time you were trying not to have this stress in your relationship and so you did so much showing up the best version that you think that would protect your belonging while your inside were struggling and finding your ways for your own needs. And then all of a sudden you became visible and your perfectionistic strategy was no longer helping you to be that perfect man.
And then you felt so threatened and you were so afraid that you lost all the belongings that you did, all the things you did, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (58:50.711)
To be seen and and that place, the crack that opens to the the core self is absolutely terrifying. And h then he reacts by with anger to push her away so that maybe she won’t see. Maybe she’ll feel so bad about herself that sh you know, she won’t see him as bad because that’s what his terror is, right? That that he is actually so bad.
Jef Slootmaeckers (59:18.077)
Mm-hmm.
Jef Slootmaeckers (59:22.665)
And just taking the time with couples or individuals or families to over and over and over make a coherent
Coherent Reflections about that process helps people to get organized a little bit because for them it’s so alien, unacceptable, frightening. There is no organization around how that works.
Laurie Watson, PhD (59:52.801)
There is no way through this. Yeah. I I we only have a about ten more minutes, Jeff, but I I will just share, I had one experience of that, many experiences of what you’re describing, but one experience that was one of the most beautiful of my whole therapeutic life.
I had a man who he had been traumatized as a child. He was a black man in the South. There had been the most horrendous racial persecution that you could imagine that he had witnessed and experienced and his escape had been
to into the pleasure of sex. And he had grown up this very upstanding member of his community, raised wonderful children, loved his wife, but there was a another life that was happening. And in the therapy
he he came and told me about this and because there had been a small crack, but but what he actually told me was there was this cavern beneath what his wife had just seen. And he had never, ever told anybody either the sexual story or his trauma story.
And so when we were together as with the couple, I had him tell her both stories. And the most loving moment I have ever witnessed in therapy is when he was done telling about both the trauma and this second life that he had been living. She looked at him and she said, I want you to know
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:01:46.527)
that while I may have a reaction later, I know you’re a good person and I know you didn’t do these things to hurt me. And I mean, I I wanna cry right now. Like the love that this woman mustered
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:02:01.363)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:02:05.653)
to see past all of this stuff, to see who he was to her, to to see with loving eyes that deep down inside his core was still good. You know, I mean, just it gives me boost gumps. You know, it it’s it it is I I mean sometimes, right, and that’s what
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:02:23.379)
Beautiful. Yeah. But I can’t.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:02:32.693)
Of course, is is the essence of healing, is to s be seen as good in the midst of our shame.
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:02:39.753)
Exactly, and this is so beautiful. It’s really… And these are those rare moments, But it’s good for us to hear those stories and to experience therapy unfolds to that stage where people can really… when they found the art of appearing with their whole self.
even with all the pieces and that they can feel, this is stage two work, right? That they can really open up with the whole self, even the dark, the darkest places. And that the partner then reacts from that caregiving mode and says like, wow, I see you, I see you and you still belong to me and to humanity. That is, that’s a really, really meaningful moment.
And what I found out is that, yes, we can do that and it really heals a lot. And I was really, really amazed that we can even go one step further.
after that kind of work that you just described, what is really, really touching and beautiful.
It just really eases the fear and the pain about belonging. So people will feel more free, but in the essence, they will keep on doubting, am I a good person? And so after this deep emotional work, if you start working with people around, can they really own and see and feel themselves in a very deep way that all those years battling and suffering.
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:04:29.009)
What kept him?
How much motivation was there for you to take care of the group? that people can really not… Because shame lives in the attachment system, right? It lives in the… It’s immersed in the attachment needs or the sexual needs and the… But they were always, always, even as a young kid.
They were hiding self and sacrificing self and sacrificing their own longings and emotions and needs.
for the bigger good of the group. And if you can go back to those pivotal moments and you can help them see that their core is not bad, but is in essence a caregiver for the group, that’s transforming, that is really restructuring the core self.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:05:23.083)
Yes. I see. I see. Right. I was taking care of others by by denying the self by denying who I was. yeah. Hmm. Jeff.
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:05:41.641)
Yes, it created a lot of damage, there was always a part of me trying to do good for the bigger.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:05:50.807)
Something good. Yeah. I love this. I love this conversation. I want to have this conversation six times over. It’s it’s been so informative and good. I think I too hear your heart through this and I think our listeners will will hear hope that
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:05:59.7)
Me too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:06:14.529)
that shame can be recoverable from and then transformative, right? We can transform the way we are more true in our relationships. And then if we are true, we can be seen, we can be loved, we can belong.
it. Th thank you, Jeff Schlutzmacher. Thank you.
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:06:40.329)
Almost almost cute the way you pronounce it. Well, thank you for having this heartfelt conversation with me. I felt your heart too. And it’s so wonderful if we can bring empathic hearts to that dark place of shame because that’s what people need. So thanks for being with me.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:06:49.632)
Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:07:05.951)
And his new book, I again say,
Is Shame and Psychotherapy, The Art of Appearing, by Rutledge, and it’s on pre-sale right now in Dutch, but we hope, we really hope it will be translated into English. And but many we have listeners all over the world, and also the one that is translated now into English with his co-authors, Fighting for Connection, Perspectives on Conflict and Intimate Partner Violence.
Jeff, I and I just the last thing I I wanna say, right, is domestic violence obviously is is shame based, right? It’s when somebody feels that. So so your work is continuing. It’s not actually just different. It’s deepening and it’s generalizing so that you can help all of us with this shame and
I I thank you for your time, for being with us, for your gentle spirit, for the love that you are giving to the world in the work of writing, which I know is sweating blood. and and thank you. Thank you so much.
Jef Slootmaeckers (01:08:12.829)
Yeah, you know it.
Thank you so much for having me, really engaging with me to have this conversation means a lot.
