Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode, we are exploring eroticising power in the bedroom. Listen in as Laurie and George discuss how different attachment styles may crave to be more submissive or more dominant during sex. We discuss that both roles may be freeing, relieving of responsibility and just sinking into pleasure.
Avoidant partners may feel more close, connecting with vulnerability and more anxiously attached partners may feel reassured, certain and taken care of. This is not your average vanilla episode as we step into how to share these fantasies safely with your lover. Listeners will walk away with more understanding of underlying themes of power and control and safe and secure ways to communicate themes of submission and dominance.
Remember to grab a copy of our book, Brave Love, Great Sex available for pre-order now.
Pre-order Sale! Buy a copy of Brave Love, Great Sex from Barnes and Noble and receive 10% off! Between now and June 26th! Barnes and Noble Premium members get an additional 10% off!
Check out this episode’s sponsor (and help the pod!):
Uberlube — Laurie’s long-time most recommended personal lubricant. Use the code BraveLove at checkout to get your discount!
Transcript
George (00:02.966)
Let’s take a walk on the risky side, talking a little bit about dominance and submissiveness.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:10.691)
How we eroticize power? Let’s talk about it.
George, you like pounds?
George (00:16.494)
Like that frame. I like that frame. No, I like that frame, Laurie, talking about power. You know, a lot of times couples don’t really talk about that. It’s it’s alive in the room, it’s alive in the dynamics, but we don’t and I love the intentionality of how this plays out in these kind of roles. So tell us tell us a little bit more around, you know, what you see when you’re working in this power dynamics.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:22.978)
That’s right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:35.841)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:43.553)
Sure, sure. I just want to mention again, our book is on sale, Brave, Love, Great Sex, and our Couples Retreat is coming November 14th. Sign up now for our early bird discount.
George (00:54.434)
And people could have fun. I mean, we could definitely have someone in a submissive role reading the book to their dominant partner, right? We could we could we can introduce the book into the play.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:01.229)
Ha ha ha.
That’s right. That’s right. Absolutely. Our book belongs in your bed. Okay, so I mean, there’s so many dynamics sexually that turn us on. So many fantasies. I think many times w the things we fantasize about, we don’t even dare tell our partner because we think this is really weird or or I don’t wanna be seen this way or what will they think of me. But dominance and submission is just like almost vanilla in terms of
George (01:08.386)
Yeah, baby.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:34.303)
of how many people fantasize about completely submitting to somebody, being overwhelmed. I would say, George, ninety percent of all female romance books are about submitting. You know, that the the
good looking, overwhelming pirate, you know, causes her to submit and gives her the most wild sexual experience of her life, right? And some of it I think is giving up that responsibility. what’s is such a turn on. Like I don’t have to be responsible for my own sexual ideas, for any input. I just have somebody taking care of me, showing me the ropes, and it’s, you know, ropes maybe literally or not.
You know, just it’s so exciting to think about submitting to a lover who has designed this whole thing to bring you incredible pleasure.
George (02:29.88)
Yeah, and I think there’s a surprising amount of men that also want moments of not being in control. Right. To be able to submit and be told what to do. It just there’s something freeing about that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:42.443)
Absolutely. I think we’ve talked about this several times that sometimes when we’re large and in charge in our life, the idea of reversing that in bed where we give that up and somebody else takes charge can be such a relief and it can bring so much pleasure when we don’t have to be responsible for everything. Somebody else is responsible. And they’re taking care of us. Right? There’s the go ahead.
George (03:08.29)
Well, and let’s y let’s talk about also the dominant side though that, you know, from a male female perspective, I do think for for men being able to, you know, not have to be this politically correct, you know, they could just be like decisive and say, Hey, listen, this is in this little space of time, I’m in charge, right? To kind of just not apologize for that power. There’s something really attractive about that too. What about for women?
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:35.214)
Yeah.
So y you’re saying for a man to be able to say I’m in charge is exciting. Could be exciting. Right, right. And for women as well. I I think that it’s not just necessarily a male-female dynamic, but one of the things I wanted us to think about is how these themes of dominance and submission are not just about power too, but sometimes they’re organizing kind of our attachment longings, our the way we regulate our emotions, the way we get needs matched.
George (03:38.594)
Yeah.
George (03:42.178)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:06.157)
that we don’t necessarily get met in life in general, our emotional needs, our needs for safety and vulnerability, reassurance. We can use these themes of dominance and submission to play with them in a new way in bed.
George (04:24.001)
No, you’re gonna have to tell me more about that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:26.379)
Okay, so like imagine, you know, maybe maybe a man who is a little more avoidant, right? and he tries to manage emotional distance in his emotional realm.
George (04:34.346)
Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:44.791)
But in bed he can manage that with dominance. Like he doesn’t have to show up and talk about his needs in a way. He can be the one in charge. He can be the one meeting the needs. He can be successful because he’s the one, you know, managing the whole system, the whole event, and that gives him some relief from vulnerability. I don’t have to show that part of myself. I can manage it this way. Does that make sense to you?
George (05:15.201)
It does. And I like how you’re introducing attachment styles into this because we can’t just look at the behavior. We’re really looking at the motivation driving the behavior. So somebody that’s avoidantly attached, this this this this partner is is finding in the control of being dominant, you know, they’re able to create that space and that safety to not actually be emotionally engaged, right? So it really works.
The flip side of it, if they’re anxiously attached, they also could be dominant. There’s something about the dominance that channels their anxiety to give them a sense of control over their anxiety, right? So it’s a pushing energy as opposed to a taking space energy. Although behaviorally they still look the same. Is that what you’re saying?
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:59.649)
Yeah, I think it can. It’s just it’s similar to the way when we get angry. Maybe for an avoidantly attached person the anger pushes their partner back, but for an anxiously attached person, anger is a way to reach for their partner, to get something across, right? So dominance for maybe somebody who’s anxiously attached is not necessarily I want power, but I want certainty. I want to know that you’re you’re here with me. You’re in my control.
George (06:14.733)
Bridge the distance. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:30.054)
You know, I want to stop wondering where I stand with you. I know where I stand with you because I got y’all tied up or you know, something like that. you know, so it creates this sense while it’s it looks the same, it creates the sense of you know, maybe feeling
George (06:37.719)
Yeah, yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:50.089)
in control of your partner’s desire because you’re the one titillating that, you’re the one creating that. So you kind of know I’ve got them captured. They’re here. They’re mine. It’s a fantasy that says, you know, focus on me. Need me. You know, imagine taking somebody kind of to the brink of orgasm and then teasing them. It’s like they’re they’re kind of captured and all of their focus, all of their attention is on you, you know, begging you to
sort of move them over the edge. And so that can be, I mean, that can feel very secure to a person who’s anxiously attached. It’s like, now you know what it feels like to need, to want, to long for me, just the way I do for you. It’s like, it’s reversing that.
George (07:22.347)
Sounds pretty good to me.
George (07:41.537)
What about a securely attached person in a dominant role?
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:44.813)
Yeah, I I mean, obviously we can play with these ideas. The more securely attached we are, we can go back and forth. you know, I talk with a lot of people who maybe lean one way or the other, but they’re securely attached. I think in security we have more flexibility to play with these ideas. Being being dominant is not so scary. It’s like, yeah, sometimes I wanna take charge and sometimes, you know, being submissive is okay. It’s like, Yeah, sometimes I want, you know, you to do me. And they
They feel okay with both of those longings and they can communicate them clearly. So I think with securely attached people, these themes can be brought in as play, as experimentation, as something that enlivens them, as changes the dynamic from go upstairs, pull down the sheets, get in bed, do it, get up, clean up, go back to sleep. You know, they they bring them in for excitement.
George (08:27.053)
Mm-hmm.
George (08:42.743)
Yeah. Well and I I like we’re not here to judge. We’re just inviting you all to get curious about your own motives, like what what needs are being met behind this is not just power, there’s something about how you show up in in the world and how you connect that’s also given us information in these in these different roles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:02.551)
Yeah, exactly. And I think we we create a sense of sexiness around ideas that may make us feel emotionally safe, whether it’s either being deeply wanted or more invulnerable. Like those those can make us feel sexy because they’re actually describing inside this emotional part of us by acting it out.
George (09:29.165)
Yeah, I mean, it looks so detached from emotions. Like if you just think about it quickly, people tying each other up and giving orders, it it seems the opposite of this romantic, kind of in tuned love making. But you know, it’s loaded with all the same emotions is what you’re saying. You know, there’s reasons why people are are are feeling safe or needing a sense of control and and this is just another way of meeting those needs.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:55.457)
Right, exactly. Okay, let’s we’re we’re not at the break yet. Wow. Okay. Okay.
George (10:01.293)
Yeah, two more minutes and then we’ll switch to the submissive side. So
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:31.499)
I I think that for
dominance for the person who maybe is anxiously attached, George. It gives them an opportunity to control things for their liking. So it’s not just getting their attachment need met, but it’s also creating safety. It’s like th this is how it will go. They’re the storyteller. They’re the creator of that event. maybe they’re acting out an internal fantasy or or something like that, but it gives them a sense of
Okay, I can design this to feel safe because even though they’re in charge and they’re giving the orders, it’s I’m not even sure where I’m going here. Scratch that, George. Hold on. I want to scratch that Joe. Okay, that was okay. I kind of lost my train of thought.
George (11:17.367)
No, that was good.
I thought you that was it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:51.213)
Anxiously attach I th I think I I struggled with this when I was thinking about it too. Like how does avo anxiously attached people, how do they do dominance and how do avoidantly attached people do submission? I I I think it’s true that they both do, but I I think I struggled with it. Maybe I just say that.
You know, I I struggled in part as I was thinking about this episode, George, like trying to understand how it can be the same behavior but coming from two different places. Like, the anxiously attached person who’s structuring the event, maybe it’s not it maybe it’s about the way they create safety for themselves.
I mean we talked about they’re creating longing in their partner. They’re creating a sense of need in their partner. But also it’s a way I think that they order the whole event to to know what’s gonna happen. And I think for so many people who are anxious, they don’t know the outcome. They don’t know what will happen in the moment. They can’t they can’t be sure of something. So this gives them some certainty in the event.
George (12:37.909)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:02.237)
that can then excite them because they can fantasize about it beforehand. I think many people who have these fantasies of dominance and submission, it is kind of a secret little fantasy that they run through in their mind that don’t they they don’t necessarily talk to their partner about it.
George (13:23.851)
Yeah. This is an area I certainly am no expert in. So it’s I’m just sitting back and absorbing and and and learning. And I I do like I do like the freedom that comes with introducing, I mean, the fantasy element of just stepping outside of your normal routine and, you know, tapping into. I mean, we’re all looking to grow and explore and this is just another vehicle of doing that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:52.995)
Sure. Okay, let’s come back and talk about the anxiously attached person’s fantasies.
George (13:54.391)
Well let’s come back.
George (14:00.624)
This one lady I wanna mention her. She was at the networker not the networker, the let me see if I could pull her up.
George (14:14.263)
She ties people up.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:41.559)
You should go to Asect. All the breakouts are really interesting.
George (14:52.503)
Katie Bird. Shabari artist.
George (15:03.565)
What a show.
George (15:07.371)
Japanese art of tying the human body with rope.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:17.217)
And th she was at the where was she? Esther Perel, yeah. Uhhuh.
George (15:20.429)
She was at in sessions with us to pro.
Yeah. I’ll just give a shout out to her.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:33.707)
Okay, so
George (15:43.533)
Bring us back.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:45.013)
Okay, wait. I I wanna I wanna talk about an example too. So
George (15:49.069)
All right.
George (15:54.178)
So welcome back. We’re going to talk a little bit about the submissive role. And I was at Esther Perel’s in sessions and Katie Byrd, who’s a Shabari artist, right? The Japanese tying up was demonstrating her work. And it was really fascinating to see how many people with strangers can start falling into these submissive roles when somebody else is taking control with just a rope.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:08.77)
George (16:21.227)
Right. And I was like mesmerized. I was like, this I don’t know what the hell’s happening here, but some really kind of amazing things are happening just with people are stepping out of their everyday routines and doing that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:26.679)
Ha
Yeah.
Really different than EFT conferences, right? For sure. So I guess when I think about the anxiously attached person and their need for submission, I I’m thinking of a couple, let’s just call them, I don’t know, Emma and Jake, right? And Emma is anxiously attached, so she’s always watching Jake to see if he’s preoccupied, if he’s somehow or another disconnected. And she wonders, you know.
George (16:36.159)
Yeah, definitely a different conference.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:02.661)
Is he attracted to me? Am I enough? does he want me l the way I want him? Are we are we doing okay? She’s checking in constantly. And so outside the bedroom, she feels kind of just worried about the relationship, always vigilant. And I I think a lot of people can relate to this, even if they’re not dysfunctional, but they just feel that sense of, I don’t know if my partner’s okay. But inside the bedroom, they like to play with power.
They like to play with dominance and submission. And her partner, Jake, really likes to be the dominant one. And this makes her feel safe, right? This is where she feels like she feels loved and secure because he takes charge, he pulls her in, you know, he tells her exactly what to do, exactly what he wants. And she’s like, Okay, he’s talking to me. I know how to make him happy.
You know, and when he like grabs her wrists and guides her, she’s like, Okay, I can let go. I can feel his power and I can let go knowing that he desperately wants me. And I I think it’s so good if this gives her a sense, right, that I don’t have to wonder anymore. This is the place that she lets go. And it’s really a magnetic place for them to feel like th this is a
you know, a sure and a certainty about their love. It’s an area of strength because it’s in this moment that her anxiety is gone. You know, she knows. He desires me completely.
George (18:42.551)
Yeah, I hope I’m not crossing boundaries here. But what’s making me think about, you know, doing a lot of parenting, that really the world’s a more predictable place when kids have rules and boundaries, right? And and they know what that they’re just told what to do and they don’t have to think too much about these things. And it just reminds me a little bit of that. Like there’s a moment of I don’t have to, you know, be on and and like figure everything out and and all the stress that comes with that. It just it’s life’s a little bit simpler.
But I also we live in the
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:14.019)
No.
I wait, wanna say something to that. I wanna respond to that. I th I think you’re right. I think that any time we kind of know the parameters, we can feel safer. And and many times as an anxiously attached person, we don’t know the parameters. We don’t know when we’re gonna set our partner off. We don’t know why they’re necessarily distracted. And as a child, you know, if we feel the safety of good structure, we grow up more securely. And so I think the same thing happens
In a relationship where there’s good communication, where somebody who is maybe more avoidantly attached is saying, Hey, I just want you to know I got my mind on this, that, or the other. They they let their partner know this is what’s happening in me. But if you’re anxiously attached and you’re maybe with a partner who’s more of a withdrawal, a little more avoidant, it can feel like, I don’t know, I don’t know.
You know, if they love me, I don’t know if I’m safe and secure. But for Emily in bed, this dynamic really worked because she became certain
And so her anxiety was reduced because of these experiences in bed. And and that translated emotionally too. Like when she would get worried, just when they were going about their business, she would remember, Okay, but I know he wants because of this. I know how he acted last night. I know that I I’ve got him, right?
George (20:41.975)
Yeah, this is I it’s interesting because there’s such a cultural element that I think looks down upon surrendering. Right? It’s not equality, you’re not, you know, there there’s something about it that is weak and you know, so there I I do find
You’re trying to highlight the health in this. Like, yes, there are moments that can be can weak and the powers that can be abusive, all those things, you know, that we I think fight back against. But we often don’t talk about the health and being able to let go a little bit and have clear parameters that make you feel a little bit safer in the world more predictable. And this is a way of doing that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:22.401)
Right. Right. And in the kink community, I mean, they talk about this beforehand. You know, to make it safe, to put parameters around it, to say what do you want to happen? What do you want to experience? I mean, I think that’s an incredibly sexy question. Like, what do you want to experience tonight? It’s like, Woo, woof, wow. gosh. You know, ecstasy.
George (21:41.9)
Yeah.
George (21:46.741)
Let me take out my book.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:47.907)
Ecstasy. I’ll give you my list. But it I mean, I I think with the parameters are what you’re saying bring the safety. And so people who experiment with power and dominance and submission, they often do have a more open relationship to talk about, you know, what would they have what what would be okay to happen. You know, like, yeah, you can pull my hair, but don’t choke me or, you know, things like that.
George (22:10.337)
Yeah.
George (22:14.647)
Yeah. What about someone who’s avoidantly attached? How would it show itself in the role of submissive?
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:21.633)
Yeah, I think for them oftentimes it’s a way to let me go back here. Hold on, Joe.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:47.221)
I I think f submission for an avoidantly attached person, you know, it can make them not feel as pressured. I think many times they feel pressured to perform both in life to get it right, to do it well. And if they’re in bed and they’re being tied up or I mean, there’s so many things about submission that are not just as necessarily about being tied up, but they can feel adequate. They can feel like they’re enough. I don’t have to worry if I’m doing it wrong because my partner is managing the whole thing.
So I’m not there’s no expectations for me except to receive, except to be there, right?
George (23:24.075)
And I would imagine it gets them away from some of those feelings of insecurity or failure or shame or brokenness or needing to be intimate or you know, so it literally can be a form of taking space.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:40.695)
Yes, and I think avoidantly attached people, there there is still a need inside to be taken care of.
You know, and so this is this can be a form of their body being taken care of and they can enjoy that, even though it might be something that they push away and they don’t like to feel the need. You know, this is structured so they can’t help but feel relaxed in it, and they can allow that little part of themselves that wants to be managed, that wants to be nurtured and cared for to come forward without necessarily
George (24:23.233)
I think people listening keep going ordering some handcuffs. Well, give us a taste of secure attachment.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:27.083)
I think so. I think so but Okay.
George (24:51.095)
Take a moment.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:59.629)
Yeah, I think with secure attachment, George, it’s not necessarily having to wonder if I’m performing well or if if if if it I don’t wanna say me. I think with secure attachment it’s not necessarily the person wonders that, you know, are they performing well or that they have to give that up. It’s more about reciprocity. You know, okay, in this moment I can trust. you know, I can feel this kind of sense of play.
With the polarity of submission and dominance and how that impacts me erotically. So I think many times they can enjoy both parts of it. I think it’s about anticipation. You know, they can talk with their partner about it, like, hey, do want to try this? And there’s this fun sense of not necessarily coming from just a need, but like a design, a creativity of, you know, maybe I love the way this.
creates more chemistry between us. It’s fun. It’s exciting. So it’s not necessarily solving an attachment problem, but it’s more strengthening the secure attachment already, you know.
George (26:13.323)
Yeah, I love that you use the word trust. I mean, you have to have oobs of trust on both sides to do this. You have to be able to communicate to be able to pull this off to be successful. I mean, they they’re developing some really amazing characteristics. We know great lovers can can be vulnerable. They can let go, they can take char I mean, this is a lot of this is happening in this space, which I never really thought about because you know, you just again I just see my brain over simple. I see like
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:22.369)
You too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:37.824)
Right.
George (26:43.247)
leather and and handcuffs and I’m like, it doesn’t really and yet I you don’t see all that goes behind the scenes to make that happen. And that word trust I think is is is so important here.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:53.313)
Right. You know, anxiously attached people maybe it’s the sense of okay, now I know you want me. Avoidantly attached people’s submission is more about I don’t have to take charge, I don’t have to perform. And securely attached people, it’s probably about we get to play. We get to play with these new ideas and see how it turns us on.
George (27:14.701)
Play sounds fun to me. Right. And being able to to have this conversation. We’re always talking about in EFT, ARE conversations. Are you accessible? Are you responsive? Will you engage? Well, yeah, that’s what’s happening here from an aske securely attached perspective. Right. The same stuff that’s happening outside the bedroom is now happening in the di it’s a dance, right? It’s a beautiful dance that just has different, different moves than what we might normally think about.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:44.417)
Yeah, and I I think the goal is to move toward more secure attachment where our ideas are all good. I mean, maybe our partner doesn’t want to do them, but they welcome us having creative, erotic thoughts that we bring the that we bring to them into the bedroom.
George (27:59.991)
Yeah. And I think it’s hard is you a lot of times what I see is one partner wants to play around with this stuff and the other doesn’t. And you know, there there you go, you’re not on the same page, you’re not working as a team, and then these things become a gas pedal and a break and it creates, you know, some those negative cycles that happen sexually. So I mean I we need to communicate.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:20.375)
But but I think that thinking about them from an attachment longing perspective gives us an idea of whether this is something I don’t want to do or I do want to do. It gives us a discussion, a conversation. What need is this meeting? Why does this excite you? What does it feel like when you think about being dominant? Or what does it feel like to be submissive? So it’s not necessarily just a surface conversation of what we’re gonna do in bed, but what’s happening on the inside of us?
George (28:31.841)
Yes, yes.
George (28:48.823)
super important. I mean, the this conversation could come across as just a shallow kind of thing that turns me on and it misses the depth that you’re talking about. We can access really deep places within ourselves and each other in these spaces. And I think that’s the opportunity, that’s the invitation to the partner.
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:09.015)
That’s the vulnerability that draws us close, is when we tell these inner world secrets, right? Okay, thanks for listening.
George (29:18.039)
Keep it hot and who knows what could happen.
