Welcome Brave Lovers! In today’s episode, Laurie and George take a deep dive into low testosterone–how to spot it, the effects it can have on a relationship and how to treat it. Listen in to learn how to address this with your healthcare providers and manage it within your partnership.
Get the step by step process on how to diagnose it and conversations to have with your love. Don’t let low T be a silent villian in your sex life! Make sure to follow our socials @BraveLoveGreatSex to stay up to date with our upcoming book release!
Please check out this episode’s sponsors (and help the pod!):
cozyearth.com and use code FOREPLAY for 20% off
WE-VIBE.com and use code BRAVELOVE for 20% off
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:01.764)
Okay, G, I want to talk about kind of the relational cost of low testosterone. So many problems, so many times this happens. Sometimes it’s undiagnosed. And I just want to go through with people, you know, why this is important and what the result is.
George (00:19.726)
important topic, Laurie, bring it on.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:22.34)
Okay. You know, go ahead. First, let’s do our book.
George (00:32.878)
Exciting times, Laurie. Brave love, great sex. It’s getting closer to the finish line where it can get out there into the world, which is what we want. We need everyone’s help and spreading the word.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:43.886)
our new book, Brave Love Great Sex, also the name of our podcast. And we are just hopeful that this will really help couples because we give some solid examples. And sometimes people are visual learners. We know the people who are listening. Maybe you’re auditory learners. And that’s OK, too. But we hope that this will further our work and really help people. We’ll tell you when to push go.
George (01:10.862)
Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:13.372)
by the book and that you know that helps us when everybody buys it on the same day or something then it really pushes it into the public.
George (01:22.606)
I always remembered I listened to Brene Brown speak about a book and how much he hated promoting it. And then she said, listen, do you believe in your book? You know, somebody asked her that question. She’s like, I really do. She says, well, if you’re not going to push it, then why should anybody buy it? And always stuck with me. It’s like, you know, it’s not something I certainly like doing, but it is, you got this little window of time where you can kind of make an impact and put something out there. So yes, we’re going to, we’re to have to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:38.524)
Yeah.
George (01:51.586)
push past our discomfort and encourage you all to join us on this mission.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:56.94)
Absolutely. Okay, so today, I just want to go through kind of what happens, what does low teaming there’s a there’s a range that is normal for men and it also depends on your age. But when it drops below normal or sometimes even close to the lower edge of normal, men start to feel something in their body that is really different than maybe what they have felt before.
A lot of times a guy will come in and he’ll say, yeah, I have low desire. I’m like, what does that mean? And he’s like, well, I think about sex maybe just once a week and my erections are not as good or I’m having trouble with it. I think about work a lot more than I think about sex. And if I have a fight with my wife, I don’t want to do it.
George (02:46.958)
You’ve been very helpful with me and understanding the importance of testosterone because the symptoms of low desire could be a lot of different things. You know, there are a lot of people out there that know nothing about testosterone and that’s really important. And yet now I’m finding the opposite. So many people I know are taking testosterone, even if they don’t need it to feel stronger and feel younger. And I’m like, you know, this testosterone name is out there everywhere for some people and others are still oblivious to the term.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:01.093)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:16.834)
Exactly. And there’s a physiological problem for the man when he has low T, but also it’s kind of a relational problem between the two partners, right? It’s kind of something that changes this innate chemical kind of magnetic attraction.
And so it can affect their desire, the man’s desire. It can affect his confidence. And we know how women really respond to confidence in sexual initiation. It definitely can affect his initiation. So he may still have some desire, but he doesn’t initiate as much. He might not be as emotionally present because he’s not necessarily having a vision for sexual connection.
George (03:51.735)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:06.172)
And then it impacts their sexual cycle, right?
George (04:10.317)
Yeah, definitely. mean, you got all those physiological impacts, but then what does it add? It adds a ton of pressure to the dynamics. So not only do you have to worry about the physical stuff, but now you got, it going to work? Am I going to let my partner down? It’s been two weeks. We haven’t done anything. mean, and we know what pressure does to sex, which is, you know, just compounds, you know, all that negative cycle.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:35.258)
Right, exactly. And I think you have driven into me the fact that when a man is struggling with his erections, he’s really going to struggle with his desire to initiate. Because it’s like, could fail. And I think this is one of the problems. First of all, there’s erectile problems. But inside, would just also say, of what it feels like inside the man is he can kind of be flat.
He might lose his drive, also his drive for work. I sometimes men sublimate sexual desire into work, but sometimes this low T, he just doesn’t feel like himself. And he doesn’t have spontaneous desire anymore. And I mean, I think that the problem can be like shame. Like I’m not a guy, I’m not a man anymore. And that…
that shame or maybe it’s about feeling older and feeling kind of past your prime and that is really difficult.
George (05:38.946)
I know for me it’s helped me really understand.
more of my wife’s perspective, you know, what it’s like sometimes to not have that initiating drive, that focus that testosterone gives you. every once in a while, Lori, especially late at night, if I’m, you know, exhausted and I’ve been wanting to have sex all day, but I can reach a point where, you know, it’s like that drive isn’t as steady. like, like you always describe a women, you have to kind of climb a hill first. Like I don’t like climbing hills. I like what it’s.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:07.355)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:12.783)
Especially when you’re tired, right?
George (06:13.839)
Yeah. Well, that’s what I’m saying. It’s like, can relate to that feeling. And this is what a lot of men describe with low T it feels like they have to climb a hill first. They have to get over, they have to get themselves into it. It’s work. You know, they got to work with the hope something’s going to happen. I’ve, I have heard so many women say that I got to do this work and you know, trust that my body will get there. And a lot of men are not used to doing that.
So when this comes for them, it’s a scary thing and it becomes easier to start avoiding that feeling. You you miss the old days, there’s loss to this immediate kind of trusted kind of desire that you can tap into right away. Now you don’t have that in such a steady force. And you know, that’s a big mountain to climb sometimes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:39.066)
Right, right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:00.22)
I would say you’re dead on, right? Because the way they used to feel desire was triggered from their body. They don’t think about it like as a relational issue where that their partner needs their body and they need their partner’s body and they haven’t sort of trained their mind to do that. So for the man, usually he kind of stops initiating.
George (07:07.49)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:25.82)
you know, because he wants to avoid that sense of failing and the embarrassment that might come if he doesn’t have a good erection. And he really can become more avoided. And if you’re already avoided and sex was the way that you pursued, guess what is going to happen in the mind of the partner.
George (07:43.051)
Yeah. How did I take that personal?
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:44.123)
Right? It’s like hard to not take that personally, right? Is he not attracted to me? Does he not love me? Is there somebody else? You know, especially when it’s like, you know, he used to be all over me and used to be all about me. And now I can prance around and negliges and it doesn’t do anything.
George (08:04.109)
and it make things complicated further. If the man then turns towards masturbation where there’s no pressure and there is a quick desire, you’re watching something, now all of a sudden you got this steady, consistent thing that you have, it’s sure to deliver and sex with your partner becomes more more pressurized. And so you can see how this low T leads to relationship press, pressure which leads to kind of partner.
criticism, leads to going in different directions and like it just spirals out of control.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:37.284)
I know. And I’ve talked to a lot of women who say, you know, he doesn’t, he doesn’t emit that kind of chemistry, that the sense that I’m a turn on. And so naturally, you know, she’s like, okay, you know, he’s, he doesn’t have it for me. And this can be really jeopardizing to the relationship, you know, because gosh,
if something that is really missing in your experience as a woman coming from a man, what’s normal, right? Especially if she walks down the street and she gets attention and she gets men who flirt with her and she knows she still has it, but her partner doesn’t have it for her. It’s really hard to interpret it any differently. Then he doesn’t want me.
George (09:27.061)
Yeah. We all want to be adored, right? And desired by our partner. And when pressure starts to kill that, you know, that’s, yeah, it’s, it’s, that’s a threat to the relationship. I mean, one of our important needs is, is, is not really being met, you know? And we talk about this all the time. Unmet needs is really what drives protection and protection is really what drives negative cycles.
So you can see how the space gets filled in with these negative cycles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:57.796)
I know and George, low testosterone can turn a secure couple into the negative pursue withdrawal cycle without either really either one of them understanding why. And and so something that used to work no longer works anymore. And I think this is the challenge, especially in midlife. And I will say, I see this happen when men have low T for reasons that we don’t understand.
Many times a man has low T for something that we don’t know why it started. You gotta sort of be in touch with that. You gotta be in touch with your urologist about that to know kind of what is happening. But I think men are reluctant to think about that. It’s like, because it is challenging to their identity as a male, right?
George (10:47.373)
Exactly right. mean, who wants to identify as a low T male? I mean, that’s the illusion male cod with that. So that’s what makes a man is the testosterone. I mean, in an oversimplified way, but when you’re around men, that’s what they’re evaluating. And yes, when you that drops, it’s something you don’t want to broadcast. You want to keep it to yourself. It goes underground. And we know it’s hard to fix something that goes underground.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:55.524)
You
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:14.114)
Exactly. And there’s so many complicating factors in this. Low T makes it harder to maintain your weight. You know, so men sometimes become overweight and then they attribute this like, okay, now I don’t even like my body. don’t, working out doesn’t work the way it used to to get in shape. I’m not feeling good about myself. It is a real big problem. So should every man
George (11:38.669)
still do my sit ups every night because Lori told me about this connection between belly fat and low T. try to hold on to that. But no, you’re right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:44.934)
You
Well, and you do more than that, right? mean, you exercise pushups at the table, right? Like pushing away the food is really your big one.
George (11:52.589)
Yeah, I do more than that. that’s what I’m gonna say.
George (11:58.946)
Yeah, I don’t know about that, but it’s a good it’s a it’s a noble. It’s a noble. yeah. Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story, right, Laurie? But I do appreciate it. Just the ripple effect that you’re talking about, how something that’s hormonal in a body kind of goes into all aspects of your life. You know, low T, you lose that confidence. You’re also going to be more irritable. You’re to be more, you know, withdrawn. You’re going to.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:00.635)
okay, well. That’s what he bragged about earlier at some point.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:09.712)
For sure, for sure.
George (12:27.147)
You know, probably be more depressed. There’s a loss aspect to a part of you that you really trusted and liked. You don’t know how to talk about that. So you can see just all these layers of protection and not knowing how to communicate. And before you know it, this, this physical body kind of expression starts to impact emotionally how we show up. And then it’s just spills out everywhere.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:50.431)
it’s so problematic. And I think the main thing I listen for when I’m talking to a man is kind of, is he aware of the change? Because a lot of men, know, in their, especially when they’re in their 40s and this starts to happen, it’s not something they expect. Maybe they expected in their late 50s.
but not in their 40s. And then they’re like, okay, I didn’t even notice this was happening. I was spending so much money on, or I was spending so much energy on work, you know, that I didn’t realize I was kind of neglecting my sexual relationship, you know, my health. And I would say that let’s, actually, let’s come back and talk about kind of what you do about this. Exactly, exactly.
George (13:34.583)
What can we do about this? Lori? Yes.
George (13:41.773)
All right, so we spend a lot of time just normalizing the impact on so many areas, which really does suck. What’s the good news, Laurie?
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:41.977)
Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:50.522)
Yeah, well, I think the good news is that this is often very repairable. know, first you have to kind of notice it, then you have to get good medical help. And I really highly suggest that men go to a urologist or an endocrinologist, people who are trained in hormonal therapy to kind of understand what’s happening. And plus they’ll be well monitored because too high of testosterone is also problematic, George.
Sometimes what it does, just I happen to know this, it can raise your red blood cells. And this is problematic because your red blood can get sticky. And guess what happens when you have sticky blood? Blood clots, strokes, heart attacks, things like that, right? So you wanna be…
George (14:36.946)
I’m laughing because there’s so many men probably listening and saying, yeah, I’ll take that problem. That’s fine. I’ll take my chances. Give me a blood clot as long as I hold on to that high T. I mean, that just shows how important it is to most men.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:48.341)
Exactly. Exactly. And you know what? The red blood cell problem is an easy fix too. mean, it’s just they need to be well monitored. So if they have that as a side effect, then they know what to do, which actually the simple fix is to donate blood. And that fixes everything. We should all donate blood. It actually is healthy for us to do that. Yeah, exactly. So I want to talk about the like…
George (15:11.105)
Amen.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:16.065)
what we do and how we kind of help couples think about it first, not just medical intervention.
George (15:20.951)
Well, identifying it, said identifying it, and then you’re going to go get tested. Right. And so what are you looking for in a test? And somebody’s going to give you a measure.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:29.627)
Okay, so I want them to be tested not just with their primary physician. If their primary physician says, you’re within normal range, but they’re really on the low end of normal and they don’t feel better, they need to go see a urologist. Because sometimes urologists are more apt to intervene at lower ends of the spectrum of what’s normal. And they might really need that. So, and often,
George (15:58.232)
So what is range?
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:59.196)
They don’t want to, yeah, it’s 350 to about 1,000. And 1,000 nanograms per milligram is the unit. It’s like when you’re 18. When you’re 18.
George (16:10.317)
But I would imagine those those scores, right? Right. They drop with age. So, you know, if you’re 50. All right. So if you’re 50, what score would be? 500.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:15.353)
But they dropped just a tiny bit, just a tiny bit over time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:24.795)
Yeah, 500, 600, somewhere in that range would be kind of, that would seem to provide adequate desire. So something that is now.
George (16:34.965)
If you get 700, do you celebrate?
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:38.235)
If you get 700, yeah, you celebrate. Are you going to share your numbers, G?
George (16:40.717)
All right. And if you get, I have never had it done. So let’s.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:45.313)
No, that’s crazy. You’re on a sex podcast and you haven’t checked your body? my goodness.
George (16:52.159)
I keep saying I want to, they keep forgetting to do it. So I haven’t gone to a urologist. I don’t have a urologist, but I think it’s not a bad idea to start with your general doctor to just kind of get a base score to at least start this process and get more information afterwards.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:05.987)
Right, you need a testosterone blood test and you need, they need to test all your hormones because for one thing, some men have slightly raised estrogen. Estrogen binds with testosterone. So even though your testosterone is normal, your estrogen might be too high and it like, it basically traps the testosterone so you can’t feel horny. That’s the reality.
George (17:31.881)
That’s doesn’t sound good. All right. So we got a score. We recognize the score. My AP 300, right? It’s, it’s, it’s on the lower end and it’s, it’s having some impact on your desire. And so what, can we do?
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:34.277)
Doesn’t sound good exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:40.783)
Yeah. Right.
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:48.89)
So I mean, a lot of doctors will prescribe another medication, not testosterone, which is Clomid. it’s an old, women are going to recognize this drug because it’s an old med that is used to actually signal the pituitary gland to signal your ovaries or your testes to do something, to make hormones. And so when you’re infertile or you’re struggling with fertility issues, it basically
As a woman, it says, make some follicle stimulating hormone so that you can make an egg. No, scratch that, Joe. So that your egg can kind of get ready to be released. And in men, the pituitary gland signals the testes, make some testosterone. The good news about this, is you’re making your own.
George (18:43.636)
instead of getting it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:44.813)
instead of getting testosterone from an outside source, a synthetic source, which is it’s all synthetic. That’s not the problem. But basically, if you need testosterone, then you need it. But taking testosterone does over time shut down your testes ability to make its own testosterone. And it does shrink your testicles, which is a big deal for some men.
George (19:02.743)
That’s the risk. Okay.
George (19:08.843)
So just also for our women listening, what’s a low testosterone? Cause I also hear a lot of women taking testosterone.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:17.979)
Yeah, that’s true. So that’s a whole nother podcast. But the range is about 75 when you’re 18 down to 0.2 when you’re menopausal. So radically different ranges of testosterone. And sometimes, yes, women need testosterone for many reasons. I’m not an advocate of just running out every single time and getting testosterone when you feel low desire because in general,
George (19:22.733)
All right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:46.618)
we don’t exactly know there hasn’t been enough testing on what testosterone does to a woman’s body. you know, in many ways, the medical field is behind when it comes to research and testing for women. So, you know, you really have to work with a doctor about that.
George (19:53.311)
Okay.
George (20:02.487)
Well, I appreciate you staying on mission. We’re focusing on the man here. There’s another podcast, right? And, and that is, I think really helpful information, you know, that there’s different ways of treating low testosterone, try to get your body to produce its own, or you could augment it with synthetic testosterone, which will work and increase your scores. But the risk of that over the long haul is once you started, your body’s going to actually produce less of it. Okay.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:07.193)
Yeah. Yeah, let’s focus on the men.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:17.732)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:30.979)
Yes. And then you become, you have to have it in order to feel normal. Whereas the other drugs might cause you to of jump start your body to do it again, which is good.
George (20:45.643)
So what about, because men are so dependent on the testosterone, and I think the opportunity as it drops is to kind of learn other areas, like women do, to kind of become more of an erotic mind, more emotionally attached, like developing all the doorways into the sexual arena, right? If they’re able to do that, does that change their testosterone or the testosterone will stay the same?
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:11.511)
No, it doesn’t raise their testosterone really. mean, men can through weightlifting sort of increase their testosterone by about 100 points. So that’s a lot if you’re low T. If you go from 350 to 450, you’re doing pretty good. But it takes a lot of effort, takes a lot of weight, you know, and it’s not guaranteed. So I think, again, working with a physician is important. But I think
What the man needs to do and what the couple needs to do is think about low T is an outside entity. They have to both acknowledge this is impacting us. How we treat it, how we get together on it is our task. One body can have a dysfunction, but it takes two people to resolve a sexual dysfunction.
George (22:04.141)
Yeah, this is, we do this all the time when it’s like a cancer diagnosis or something else. We, it’s not our partner’s fault and we’re there to give them care, give it in support. Right. And then you’re, you’re encouraging the same approach as nobody’s fault if their body’s numbers change. Right. And if they take a couple’s approach to it, you take it less personal, you’re more supportive. Maybe that partner has less shame is doing less hiding, like all the symptoms of this, that
impact all other areas can be addressed while you’re addressing the testosterone.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:38.745)
Right. And I think, you know, they can shift from this performance sex, which is I got to have a hard erection to connection sex, because men can please women without erections, it turns out. They can give them oral sex. They can touch them. You know, there are many, many ways that you can please a woman without a great erection. So. Yeah.
George (22:58.273)
which can feel real manly. Right. So I mean, again, if I’m avoiding sex, because I don’t think I’m going to, you know, maintain an erection because my testosterone is like, I’m feeling less than as a man and there’s nothing I could do with that. And what you’re encouraging is, well, you know, if you take some pressure off, you put your body in that bed, good things could happen. And if you’re not able to kind of maintain an erection, you’re still able to kind of please your partner, which is going to feel pretty good.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:26.691)
Right, you ring the bell and you feel like a man again, right? It’s a good thing. I think they need to slow down the sexual sort of time frame. I think for men, they’re so used to it happening, their body responding quickly. And actually, they’re probably going to need a lot more stimulation, a lot more time.
George (23:32.461)
Bring the bat.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:51.004)
And that’s, it turns out that’s really good for their female partners. So, you know, that’s no problem. And I think if you kind of have a partner, as a partner can be reassuring, like, look, I just want to be naked with you. Maybe I want to climax. I want you to climax, but we’ll get there whichever way we get there. doesn’t, you know, let’s like think about pleasure as what’s important between us. Connection is what’s important between us. It doesn’t have to be.
the way it used to be.
George (24:23.277)
Yeah. And now that this you’re united against the low testosterone, you get more creative, more, can problem solve. Like it’s better in the morning. If you have low T, right. It’s probably more likely to be higher. So maybe you shift from this tired at night sex to you go on vacation, you wake up in the morning and have sex or, you know, that nap during the afternoon, like trying to just problem solve together, saying the problem is how do we, how do we.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:43.811)
Right.
George (24:51.373)
put ourselves in a best situation to succeed.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:54.423)
Exactly, exactly. We want to think about it as a relational problem and figure it out together. Get on the same team, right? And that breaks the negative cycle. It’s not that he’s not attracted to me. It’s just that his body doesn’t drive him for sex anymore. know, and it unfortunately, though, low testosterone, you know, it doesn’t just lower desire. It kind of lowers his confidence.
and often lowers his initiation and that can be the problem. So certainly if men keep initiating and women maybe learn how to pick up the slack a little bit, it’s like, hey, you know, I have some desire and I want to be in bed with you. Let’s let’s do that.
George (25:39.021)
Well, can put a couple at the crossroads because what happens sexually is also going to impact what’s happening emotionally. Right. So if you’re failing in bed, you’re probably not going to want to engage as much outside the bedroom. And now it starts impacting all areas of your life. And this really is the redemptive opportunity.
If you could put words to that, because now this is an important area that’s been compromised a bit. How could it not impact how you feel about yourself in a relationship? This is a chance to learn how to talk about this with your partner.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:09.755)
Exactly. Exactly. So we want to think about this and get curious together instead of blaming each other. Let’s blame the hormones, blame things that, you know, we have no control over. It’s not between us and stay curious. thanks, George. I think we need a slightly different ending.
George (26:29.367)
We did, yeah, mine is to be brave,
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:33.625)
Your line is to be brave. Okay, and what is my line? Great sex. I don’t know.
George (26:35.232)
Yeah.
George (26:39.415)
you wanted to.
George (26:48.429)
Thanks for joining us. You can change it up. Thanks for being part of our team.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:56.976)
That’s boring. I think I need to say something about sex.
George (27:05.013)
You say thanks for listening, I say be brave and you say keep it hot in the bedroom or something.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:10.435)
Okay. Okay. Thanks for listening.
George (27:15.297)
Be brave, y’all.
Laurie Watson, PhD (27:17.849)
Have some great sex.
