In today’s episode we are discussing sex and spirituality. Sex and religion are often clashing ideals that can be shaming, rigid and rule-based. We invite listeners to explore the space between, where sex is an intimate connection between partners. Where people can create their own slice of heaven.
Join our hosts, Laurie and George as they peel back the complicated layers between sex and spirituality and cite various views of sex from different religions. Many religious teachings try to show partners how to love one another better, honor their sexual connection as a way to be closer to God and provide boundaries to keep that connection sacred. There is no right or wrong answer in this discussion, rather a thought-provoking conversation to see where spirituality and the connection to the spirit and soul shows up in your intimate connection.
Do you consider sex a place to transcend with your partner? Let us know what you think and share your comments on our instagram @bravelovegreatsex
Check out this episode’s sponsor (and suport the pod!):
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s absolute long-time favorite lube, from way before the podcast began! Use the code ‘foreplay’ to get your 10% discount.
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:19.447)
Okay. Okay, George, let’s talk about sex and faith and spirituality and how all this comes together for some people and see what we can learn.
George (00:33.432)
Bring it on, Laurie.
George (00:38.094)
Right, this could be a hot button issue, right? talk about all the polarization in this world around religion. I don’t know, a lot of people are raised thinking, you know, religion, sex, two separate things, don’t mix the two.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:54.263)
Yeah, lots of people. There’s some messages out there that sometimes I think, I don’t know if they’re actually true from the whole spirit of what people believe in God or if it’s just, you know, how it’s been interpreted that sometimes it’s not so healthy, but other times it seems like there’s this perspective. If you’re a person of faith that sex is something good and it’s holy and
I was talking to somebody recently, a client who was just talking about how she’d been raised in a particular strict way. And, you know, she kind of thought sex was dirty and that all of it seemed kind of seedy. But she enjoyed sex. Her husband was a good lover. You know, he wanted her. She wanted him. But this like terrible feeling kind of hung over her.
And fortunately, I had enough knowledge to bring her attention to some of the other aspects of her faith that were very sex positive and kind of about like, did she actually believe God wanted for her and her partner, her husband? And in that context, I think she could wrap her head around having a bit of wild sex, which was good.
George (02:22.356)
Nice. You know, I think that’s normally what I hear when religion or faith is brought up in the sexual context, right? It’s usually around some problems and inhibitions or negative messages. We don’t hear a lot about the positive messages of sex, you know, me, my faith is important and I start off typically my days.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:31.759)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:43.499)
I know.
George (02:48.524)
reading the Bible. And it was funny today why I wanted to talk about it. was reading the Bible, I read Proverbs and it said, let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with your partner of your youth. A lovely dear, graceful doe, may her breast satisfy you at all times. May you be intoxicated always by her love. You know, and that’s a pretty sexy
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:08.813)
Lifelong eroticism with your partner.
George (03:13.634)
You know, it’s not just a Christian perspective. I’ve been doing a lot of trainings in other faith. You know, the Quran talks about spouses are like a field for one another and encourages a harmonious sexual relationship within, you know, their love for each other. look at Hinduism’s talks about sex is a powerful force that can lead to joy and spiritual growth when approached with awareness, respect, and within the context of commitments.
But I think my favorite, did a training this weekend for the Jewish Orthodox community and it talks about the mitzvah owner. A complete person is one who lives in a joyful and loving marriage. A man is not complete without his wife. A woman is not complete without her husband. The essence of their union is expressed through the mitzvah of owner, through which they become completely united in body and spirit, making their marriage whole.
The mitzvah must be fulfilled with passion and ecstasy, a husband trying to bring his wife as much joy and pleasure as possible, and a wife trying to bring her husband as much joy and pleasure as possible. There is no greater joy in this world. It is a foretaste of the euphoria of a world to come.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:27.951)
I think that that’s beautiful. The idea that what we experience in sex is kind of a bit of heaven, It’s a bit of what maybe what it’s all about.
And you can see that even if you don’t believe in a particular heaven, right? Just that it’s this profound experience of oneness and rapture and merger. I mean, just amazing.
George (05:01.813)
And it dovetails so nicely in the sex research of Peggy Kleinplatz, right? Great lovers. Great lovers describe this sense of transformation, of transcendence, of becoming some part of bigger than yourself. mean, when do we hear about this in faith traditions, right? Like it’s about surrendering, letting go, become part of something bigger. You know, that’s pretty beautiful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:23.439)
It is beautiful, beautiful, yeah. Yeah, I heard a little bit about that when I was growing up and I had some very, I grew up in the Christian faith and had some really sex positive messages. There were a few crazy messages too, but there was definitely some sex positive messages. I remember one woman when I was getting married said,
giving your partner oral sex is like worshiping at the altar. And I was like, interesting. Although I think she might have said it about women giving men oral sex, not necessarily men giving women oral sex, but the concept I think holds for both. She was talking about intimacy and something that is beautiful.
George (06:12.621)
Yeah, I think both of us are in a similar vein, right? Where we believe consultant adults can do what they want and with their lifetime, you know, if you’re whatever dynamics you define your relationship, whatever belief systems you have within that, that’s, your call to make. you know, if you find yourself in a faith tradition that does believe in the, you know, a committed relationship that can we make room for the beauty?
that some of these spiritual traditions want to bring into that bedroom, right? That’s, I think I find personally so grounded in my own life, a belief that there’s something else, you know, bigger than me out there. And it takes such a huge part of my anxiety and trying to bridge that towards the bedroom. mean, taking myself less seriously, easier to give care, given, surrender, let go. Again, I think these are very helpful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:46.255)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:55.193)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
George (07:10.813)
attributes for what the research around attachment theory talks about makes for strong secure bonds.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:15.043)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:18.711)
Yeah, I agree. I think that attachment theory works very well with the sense of religion and people who see themselves as attached to God, you know, the ultimate good father and his wish for them to, you know, experience all good things. I mean, that and his connection.
I always say I’m always a Christian at Christmas, you because it’s such a beautiful story of coming into the world in empathy to the other, right? Like actually being with the other, walking in their shoes. That’s the idea. And I know for many the literal sense of Jesus, but it’s such a fabulous story.
George (08:12.493)
And Lori is a Christmas person. Go to her house and you’re going to see it decked out and magnificently done.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:20.555)
Yes, I love Christmas, my favorite time of year. Absolutely, it’s the best. know, Christmas starts like September 1st, that’s when all the carols play in my car. It’s a very long season for me. But I think it’s, you know, this idea of God becoming one of us. I mean, I don’t think it has to be in the person of Jesus. I think there are other religions that, you know,
exemplify attachment in the way they’re written. I think sex particularly is the, just like it is in marriage, you know, it’s the physical sense of oneness. I mean, I think they’re, right, there’s the unity of like, God and his bride or something like that, that there’s some scripture about that, that it’s.
George (09:06.774)
Let’s.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:18.263)
it’s talking about kind of the union, the sexual union as being the ultimate in terms of attachment.
George (09:28.417)
Bible is filled with verses of how the church is the bride. And I think you’re onto something when every major religion is agreeing with science and it’s talking about there is something about this coming together of two people becoming bigger than one. And you have to have both something you want
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:32.718)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:48.174)
Mm-hmm.
George (09:54.228)
And then ability to caregiving give to your partner. And it’s that reciprocal exchange between, I want something here, but I want to give you something. You’re giving me some, I want to give something like, that like mutual reciprocal kind of dance, you know, it’s so, it’s so, where else do we get that degree of vulnerability where you can kind of let go, take off masks, you wear in the world. You can just be present and naked with this person.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:04.279)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:14.051)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:21.015)
Mm-hmm.
George (10:21.325)
you know, the adult playground where we can kind of let go and, and just be.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:26.997)
Mm-hmm. So, so good. So important.
George (10:31.947)
Yeah. And there’s also a lot of rules attached to a lot of these eight traditions.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:37.579)
Sure, sure. But I want to go back for just one minute though, because you were talking about that religion is also about giving to each other. And I think that this is kind of the major development in sex. I guess I imagine when most of these religions came into being, there wasn’t a sense of reciprocal pleasure that
that both a man and a woman were to give to each other and to tend to each other. It might have been, I don’t know, I imagine more in the culture because women were more repressed that it wasn’t certainly about giving her pleasure. And I think that that was a massive major development that women too were due equal pleasure. this was my argument with my client.
I was like, you know, she believed in God and I said, you know, you have a clitoris. It’s like, that’s like, that’s the, the only part of either body whose soul pleasure is sexual is, you know, about, no, say that again, Joe. You know, the only part of the body whose soul purpose is sexual pleasure. And I’m just like, if you believe in yourself as being created, you know, you got to really give some weight to that, that a woman,
particularly is it’s very important that she have sexual pleasure.
George (12:08.79)
Mm-hmm.
why we made this way of not to enjoy sex.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:15.703)
Yeah, certainly. Certainly.
George (12:17.611)
and it’s a different and whatever configuration you come into the bedroom with. I mean, we mostly talk about committed relationships because that’s a lot behind who we see and the attachment theory of what it’s focusing on. there’s just, there is something.
You know, sometimes it’s even hard to bridge, to find the words to, you know, I feel the polar want to talk about a lot of the rules because there’s so much, so much of the emphasis, you know, we hear around religion and sex in all faith traditions. And yet this, we’re trying to start off here with, which is really accentuating, Hey, wait a second, we’re made a certain way and it works in a beautiful way. And we need to find more words to celebrate the beauty in.
you know, the act of love.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:13.231)
Nice. Well, let’s take a break and come back and talk some more about that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:23.218)
Thank
George (13:29.569)
going to the rules, you know, not looking at other partners, not, you know, masturbating, pornography, know, sex, I mean, there’s so many rules, menstruation, what you would do and should not be doing. And, you know, I think a lot of people do develop negative views of sex because they’re told no all the time, no all the time, no all the time. But I also find even in my life that
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:46.306)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:54.649)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (13:59.682)
You know, some of these rules or boundaries are there to protect you, right? So if, you know, I got a ton of friends who are always passing along pornography, and again, whatever you want to do in your own, you know, I know our stance has always been a pornography increases the levels of engagement in a relationship, go for it. You know, it…
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:05.87)
Mm-hmm.
George (14:24.109)
But if it’s actually causing you not to be present, cause you’re thinking about somebody else, then it’s creating distance in your relationship. Then it’s not going to be constructive, you know, for the present moment. You know, so I can feel in my own relationship, pornography takes me out of the present moment. You know, it takes me thinking about other things. It sends me down a road that’s not such a great road for me. So having a boundary up for that, you know, is
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:30.903)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:34.851)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:40.824)
Hmm.
George (14:51.253)
helpful for how I can stay present and engaged. So we’re just giving space for people to assess these things that we bring in to spice things up. Do they spice things up and help you kind of be more towards that beautiful goal of becoming part of something bigger than yourself? Whatever the tools that we bring in to do that, great. But we also have to be aware, are we bringing in things that actually create distance in our relationship?
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:54.287)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:11.097)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:19.023)
Mm-hmm.
George (15:21.151)
actually interfere with becoming part of something bigger than yourself.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:24.653)
Yeah, I’ve heard you say that before and I’ve always been glad to hear you say that, that you, you know, basically about porn, it was a decision that you made just because you, know, this thing that was held up as sort of perhaps an impossible standard or something that didn’t bring you closer to your partner, you know, it becomes this thing out there. I don’t know.
scratch that. I don’t want to tell your story or anything. But I just, I, let me start again, Jo. I think I always appreciated that about you, George, when you talk about porn and your own sense of it, that for you, it’s not something that brings you closer to Cathy, right? And so you don’t do that because it’s…
George (15:59.714)
No, Fred, I don’t.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:22.763)
not something that enhances relationship for you and I think that’s
That’s so cool. And I don’t talk to very many people who kind of set that up. Maybe they have a standard, but I don’t know that they actually do that. And I think they can get trapped in a comparison with their own relationship with the disappointment of their partner is something that porn can bring. And it doesn’t add to anything. That worries me.
vast number of people, I guess I feel some relief that one person I know out there has made a different choice.
George (17:05.737)
And my choice is not coming from a judgmental place of what other people decide to do with their choices. But, you know, I do think encouraging all of us to do an honest assessment of our own, you know, sexual relationship and to think about the things that make it more likely we can get to that target of, you know, becoming part of something bigger than ourselves. Or does it take away from that? And, you know, I just found in my relationship that was something that took away from that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:09.521)
No, Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:33.645)
Yeah, yeah. I also talked to somebody recently who was talking about his wife reading romantic novels and he was like, know, I just, can’t compete with these images of men who are incredible lovers and so attuned. And, you know, I think for his wife, it was more about turning on, I don’t think she had those expectations for her partner.
But I can certainly see it on the other hand, right? Because for women, oftentimes porn doesn’t do the thing to turn them on. They’re not necessarily as visually oriented, and it’s without context. And so many women need context. And so for her, the books provided that, the romantic novels. But there was fear in him, too. I think the point being is,
Are there ways that we can distract ourselves with porn or erotica or something that take away from our relationship? And certainly there are many religions who have rules about that. But just thinking about it for yourself, not as a rule-based issue, but as a practical love-based issue. Do these things take away or add to your relationship?
I gotta say, a lot of women use those things to turn on and then they are done with the turn on and then they’re kind of with their partner. And I imagine some people use porn that way too, but yeah.
George (19:12.019)
Exactly. Well, that’s the idea of a gas pedal and a break, right? One person’s gas pedal can turn into the other person’s break and being able to have a conversation about that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:16.448)
Mm-hmm.
George (19:23.041)
You know, I think if a partner could say, I just like this fantasy element. get caught up in a story, but then I’m fully with you. It makes me more present with you. That probably could alleviate some of those partners, you know, fears and insecurities, right? But if we don’t have these conversations, then the partner worrying is thinking like, I’m not, know, this, this pirate captain who’s got this barrel chest and knows, you know, how to dance that salsa and, you know, can all do all this, you know,
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:30.991)
Mm-hmm.
Concerns. Right, exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:44.687)
You
Hehehehehe
Do all this stuff.
Yeah.
Wait, you went out. I can’t hear you, G. You’re not recording either.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:07.855)
Keep saying something. You’re back.
George (20:13.791)
I like the idea of changing it from a rule to a boundary. We know in attachment research that a caregiving system needs both love and limits, empathy, responsive, all that good stuff, but limits and boundaries and structure, discipline, consequences, those are also part of making for strong relationships. And I would think the same with faith traditions, that some of these boundaries are there to protect us.
You know, not just to inhibit us and make our lives difficult, but they’re trying to say, listen, there’s wisdom of hundreds and hundreds of years of people who live this lifestyle and are trying to kind of provide some. So I guess I want to not pathologize. know we get a lot of feedback from our listeners that come from a faith tradition that often feel like anytime faith is mentioned in the religious context, it’s always about how faith screws things up and never talks about some of what we’re trying to talk about here.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:10.862)
Mm-hmm.
George (21:10.891)
We can do another podcast on some of the consequences of negative messages around sex and religion, which is certainly valid too. But you know, some of these, these boundaries that are put in place, maybe around masturbation or affairs, infidelity, pornography, are there trying to keep people from, you know, going down roads that are gonna, you know, possibly damage or likely damage their relationship.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:42.99)
So I think it’s a question of legalism versus kind of born in love. Like I think what I’m hearing from you is do these things, do the rules make sense for deepening the intimacy and the sexuality between you and your partner, right? I mean, if you’re masturbating compulsively,
George (22:01.505)
Exactly. Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:08.271)
and you don’t wanna have sex with your partner, then something’s probably wrong. It’s not adding to the relationship and any listener knows I’m not against masturbation, but in general.
George (22:23.277)
Hold on, hold on. That is just so important. know, because whenever we talk about masturbation as wrong or right, you know, we don’t hold that balance where what you’re saying here, which is assess is this helping you to get closer together or is it getting in a way of that?
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:41.985)
Right, exactly. And so all of, I think what you’re trying to bring to us today is that it’s literally thousands of years, right, that people have been thinking about within the context of their faith, how to exemplify love, how to make us more loving as partners, mimicking what people believe is a God and human relationship of attachment.
George (22:53.836)
Yep.
George (23:02.157)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:10.967)
right, that there’s some good out there, some God out there who wants us to be, you know, full of love, wants us to be sexual, gave us a body, you know, and all of those things which are really beautiful. And even if you don’t believe those things, I think there’s my own experiences is sometimes spiritual in the sexual realm, right, that I feel it.
George (23:18.039)
Sexual.
George (23:36.543)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:38.563)
does transcend just two bodies being together. I feel a oneness that is amazing and profound, literally profound. Not all the time and probably not even most of the time, but sometimes. And it feels really special.
George (23:47.149)
Mm-hmm.
George (23:58.573)
It’s like the perfect golf swing. It only has to be sometimes, right? Keep you coming back for more.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:01.359)
That’s right. Three times in your lifetime.
George (24:09.579)
those three times might not ever had that experience outside the bedroom. I think that is the unique opportunity about being with your partner. You know, to me, it is the ultimate in vulnerability. I mean, you’re not sure what’s going to happen. You don’t know if you’re going to have to sense the transcendence, but when you do, it might be the only spot where you experience something like that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:34.743)
Yeah, absolutely. So go with God, right? Thanks for listening.
George (24:43.671)
Go with God, I like that, Laurie. And say keep it hot, keep it transcendent
