As the saying goes, you can have it all just not all at once. Have you ever brought up a complaint to your partner only to be met with their complaint? This is a common relational trap and leaves partners chasing too many conversations at once and feeling more defeated.

Join George and Laurie today as they offer guidance on how to slow this pattern down and focus on one conversation at a time. Caregiving needs, emotional needs and sexual needs are all important but we need to stick to one at a time if we ever want to get anywhere. If you’ve ever found yourself caught in this trap, this episode will help you and your partner stay focused on your individual experience, how to communicate that with vulnerability to your partner and how to listen with empathy and compassion. Staying the course on one topic at a time will help partners have more effective conflict and work to get some of these needs met.

Transcript

Laurie Watson, PhD (00:24.16)

George, the chore wars. This woman needs help doing the dishes and she’s too tired to want to have sex or she’s too angry to want to have sex afterwards. How are we going to help this couple?

George (00:45.74)
Let’s solve it, Laurie. Let’s solve it.

Laurie Watson, PhD (00:48.158)
Okay. I just want to thank again our patrons. We appreciate your support right now. I know some of you kind of complain about too many ads. We get it. We would love to reduce that, but we need a little help. And so if you are with us in our mission, please go to our foreplay page, which is foreplaysextherapy.com and help us with becoming a patron. Thanks.

George (01:16.26)
We do really appreciate that. It takes some stress off our plate.

Laurie Watson, PhD (01:20.148)
It does. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so.

Tell me a story about this. I know you work with it like I do, but let’s say one person, often more typically the female, but not always, is kind of bearing more of the burden of household chores and the mental load of the children’s appointments and what’s going on at school and how to get the laundry done. then they’re resentful, right?

When their partner says, want to have sex, feels like I have to meet your needs, but you’re not meeting my needs.

George (02:02.992)
I like to break it down and just tactically into communication. Right. I just saw a couple this morning. say, how’s it going? Husband starts off. He’s like, it’s not, not going great. George, you know, again, this week we talked about last week having sex. haven’t had any sex. I really don’t know what, what else I’m supposed to do. I just don’t think she’s interested. mean, I don’t know what her issues with sex. And of course she jumps in, takes the bait and is like, well, again, we also talked about you helping out more around the house. You haven’t done a thing.

you know, so I just pause them as soon as we’re like 10 seconds into this session. And, you know, I’m trying to help them see they’re having two different conversations at the same time. Right. He’s talking about both of them are focused on the other person, right. Which in therapy we call view of other he’s few of other in the sexual cycle, trying to get her to see that she needs to do something different for things to change. Right. And there’s some truth to that.

Laurie Watson, PhD (02:57.548)
Yep. Yep.

George (02:59.352)
She’s having a different conversation in the emotional cycle, focus on him and what he’s not doing, hoping that he’s going to hear that and change. Right? So you are in two separate conversations, both of them focus on changing the other person, right? Neither one of them talking about their own experience. They’re focused on like, that is a low probability that, you know, both of them are needing something.

And neither one of them are getting what they’re needing, right? The caregiving systems are blocked in both because it’s confusing when we’re talking about different cycles, different conversations, everything at the same time.

Laurie Watson, PhD (03:24.706)
Right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (03:31.764)
Exactly, exactly. We’ve got so much on the table, we can’t straighten it out. And would you say that view of other just for a layperson term would be we’re blaming the other for the problems? You know, I mean, it’s more complicated than that. But essentially, we see the other person at fault versus seeing the cycle or seeing our own contribution.

George (03:54.82)
Well, I do think a yellow brain, a threat response, you know, we get tunnel vision and we know we’re hurting. So we see the solution. like, we have to get our partner to do something differently. So it’s so natural to get focused on what your partner could do differently to change the environment that you’re in. And we often don’t see what we’re doing to our partner simultaneously in that. That’s why cycles are so, I think, empowering because it, it enlarges the frame to start seeing.

a bigger picture that that tunnel vision doesn’t allow us to see.

Laurie Watson, PhD (04:28.248)
So when we have, when we’re thinking about view of other, when we have the view of the other, our focus is on what they are doing or not doing that’s driving us crazy. And we are not able in yellow brain or when we’re kind of escalated and upset.

George (04:38.424)
Yep.

Laurie Watson, PhD (04:46.166)
to kind of think about this as the cycle problem. And you and I know that there is a cycle here, right? It’s kind of a crisscross system. He’s not helping in the caregiving system. He’s not giving practical help.

that triggers her, she shuts down potentially emotionally and sexually and says, know, I can’t be sexual with you because I don’t feel supported. And so then he’s triggered in the sexual cycle, like, look at, I’m not getting my needs met in this relationship. She’s like, I’m not getting my needs met in this relationship. So they’re both shut down.

George (05:23.627)
Exactly, and you can gain control over this by…

picking one of those missions at the time. They’re both important conversations. Right. So who wants to go first? You know, do you, you want to be her, you want to talk about not getting held with the dishes? Do I want to talk about, you know, not things, not changing in the bedroom, whichever one we can only, we can’t do both at the same time. Right. So, and I like how you’re highlighting what gets blocked, which is whoever’s sharing the other person has to be able to try to keep the focus on them. I mean, that’s the beauty when you come from a place, what we call view of self.

Right. It’s an invitation. I’m struggling with this. Can you help me with this? It’s trying to invite you in that’s it’s trying to get your caregiving. But when I come right out with view of other, and it feels like an attack or it feels like criticism, it just blocks our brain’s ability to give the missing ingredient, that caregiving system.

Laurie Watson, PhD (06:16.246)
Right, exactly, exactly. So, I mean, do we want to kind of do it the bad way and role play it for people so that they can hear it? Because I know, George, this is a very, very typical problem for couples.

this caregiving sexual block. I’ve said it over and over, resentment is the monster under the bed. It’s in, especially in getting the tactical care that you need, just blows up and it’s like, people don’t want to be sexual.

And I know that we’re kind of stereotypical here in terms of talking about it from a gender stereotypical way, but certainly I have had male clients say, my wife wants to stay at home with the children and I want that too, but I’m dying on the vine financially. And I feel so much pressure. I’ve taken a second job, a third job. It’s like, she needs to do something to earn a couple thousand bucks a month and she’s gotta do it at nap time or in the evening or something. I’m dying. And then he gets shut down.

often more in the emotional cycle because of the testosterone drive. it happens for men as well as women to get shut down over the… Yeah.

George (07:30.244)
And we want to track that shift from view of self, view of other. He said, I’m dying. That would be something interesting that she’d probably want to help with, but he doesn’t, quickly goes into, because you’re not doing this. You could be working more. need more of this and you’re not doing that. I could be doing this. And like, it’s that relentless focus on the other that actually causes the person to go further away.

Laurie Watson, PhD (07:43.416)
Right.

Laurie Watson, PhD (07:47.286)
It’s the push. Yeah, it’s that push. It’s that blame. And it’s that frustration, that energy that comes at you and you’re like, man, I’m failing, right? I’m failing my partner. And all I want to do is strike back to show them how they’re failing.

George (08:05.584)
Yeah, exactly. So let’s let’s role play. Let’s just see. And again, we teach this all over the world and we get it wrong all the time with our partners. We’re in this together. It’s just about an ability to recognize. Do you recognize when you’re focusing on like

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:08.405)
Okay.

George (08:18.892)
That’s what’s nice to having a therapist. could just say, hold on a second. Hold on a second. Do you notice if you’re focusing on talking from yourself or you’re focusing on your partner, you’re interrupting here. You’re interrupting because you’re trying to give care given, or you making about something happening with you. Like when we get these pauses, it’s a lot easier to reflect. And when we start to gain more power and control over these things, because we know emotions are fast. mean, one tenth of a second, we’re already responding and doing something. So we’re trying to slow that process down.

Laurie Watson, PhD (08:47.06)
One tenth of a second, and our body is alive with frustration or fear. I mean, it’s like, boom. Our partner just said something like, hey, can you help me with the dishes? And suddenly, we’re angry. And we didn’t even know it. But our blood pressure goes up. It’s so fast that we get escalated. But by replaying these arguments, by finding a better way, we can actually deescalate the body.

George (08:47.106)
Slow your roll, baby, slow your roll.

Laurie Watson, PhD (09:16.98)
And that to me is the ultimate healing, right? When I don’t actually react in my body anymore, or I know that it’s a signal and I’m able to then control my mouth essentially, right? Control the tongue. So.

George (09:32.987)
Yeah, well let’s play with it. Let’s see how quickly it can go off the rails and see why it’s a setup for failure when both people are just talking about the other person. No one’s gonna be heard, caregiving gets blocked, and couples just fall into protective moves. That’s all the negative cycle is. We all do it, but the more we can recognize why it doesn’t work, the more we can also come up with the new moves to doing it differently.

Laurie Watson, PhD (09:58.094)
Okay. So Joey, you know, I just feel like…

I ask and I ask and I ask and I ask for your help. mean, how can you let me cook dinner, get up after dinner and do the dishes? The garbage is overflowing. The kids need help with the homework. It’s like you are oblivious to all the needs that you’ve walked into. I know you’ve worked hard all day, but there’s still more work to be done.

George (10:29.204)
I mean, I think it’s comical how somehow, regardless of the conversation, the message is always the same, that I should be doing more, doing something differently. Never you have to change or do anything. It’s always changed, Joey, right? I mean, I you need to look in the mirror and all the things, you know, have you noticed we haven’t, you know, had any alone time together? There’s always an excuse. There’s always something else on your list. It’s like the goalposts always moving. Like, what is it about you that you just can’t be, like, settled?

Laurie Watson, PhD (10:56.142)
There is no time, Joey. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. If you would pitch in, there might be a little bit of time. I might have a little bit of energy at the end of the day and want you.

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:25.996)
My body’s already escalated, so now I’m annoyed as hell. Now I can. Shit, OK.

George (11:31.12)
Can you can’t hear me? No. All right. So I don’t think you understand, somehow if I change and do the things you say, like it’s going to make everything better. It doesn’t make a difference anyway. I could do eight things, nine things, 10 things. There’s always something else to do and always another excuse of why you don’t want to spend time and prioritize what’s going on with us.

Laurie Watson, PhD (11:57.338)
Yeah, because there is no time. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. When you sit on… When you sit after dinner or go into the living room and think that you can open your computer again and look at emails and the kids are running riot and I got all this stuff to do and then you really want me to have sex at the end of the day, I’m so mad at you. I wouldn’t want to have sex with you, even if I had time at that point.

George (12:01.732)
There is no time.

George (12:22.59)
What are you going to take ownership for the excuses that you make? It’s just one excuse after the other excuse after our excuse. There is not enough. We, if I gave you 48 hours in a day, it really wouldn’t make a difference.

Laurie Watson, PhD (12:33.806)
It would make a huge difference. It would make a huge difference. I mean, I’m not even asking for 48 hours. I’m asking for two hours when you get home till the kids are in bed to have all hands on deck. What is so difficult about seeing the need there?

George (12:36.078)
Yeah. All right.

George (12:43.054)
Yep.

George (12:49.696)
got stuff I got to do at work. We can talk about this later.

Laurie Watson, PhD (12:53.55)
Okay, now I want to cuss you out.

George (12:57.616)
and

George (13:01.306)
I gotta hope I listen, is it? I mean, we can’t have success.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:03.987)
this is so familiar to our listeners. I know it is.

George (13:08.044)
I mean, listen, we all do it, but you can see mathematically, we’re both focusing on what the other person’s doing. Both of us actually need help. We’re both struggling with something. Neither one of us, again, our partners interest, engagement, comfort, care, responsiveness. All we’re getting is more accusations and defensiveness, right? This is just as poor communication.

We all fall into it, but we got to recognize there’s a really good reasons. This doesn’t work. We’ll never work. We’ll always lead to negative cycles. And if we can identify what’s not working, the good news is we can change it.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:45.696)
I’m exhausted. I’m exhausted just listening to us.

George (13:51.152)
Well, let’s come back from break and see what we can do differently.

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:52.544)
Okay, let’s come back. Give me a break.

George (13:58.745)
Are you still hearing me okay now?

Laurie Watson, PhD (13:58.774)
Okay, I’m hearing you’re okay, buddy. Okay, so I think that…

We really have to help people hear each other here. And I think what you’re saying is so important. We’re saying, let’s separate the conversations. If at all possible, let’s not talk about household chores, caretaking, and sex in the same conversation or emotional connection. Those are three separate conversations. Caretaking, emotional connection, and sexual connection. Three different conversations. You got to only talk about one at a time.

George (14:26.064)
Yeah.

Laurie Watson, PhD (14:40.085)
And I understand that if you’re being attacked in one, it’s so easy to switch to the other where you’re unhappy. It’s like you’re saying, there is a balance here. I’m unhappy here and it does block me. It does block me from meeting your needs over here. I get that that’s true, but you can kind of never solve it at that point.

George (14:52.078)
Yeah, their influence.

George (15:03.352)
Yeah, a big part of getting out of negative cycles is taking ownership for timing. Everything that we’re talking about is important and everything will be addressed, but you just can’t do it all at the same time. So really we’re trying to simplify this. One person has to start off sharing what’s important for them. They are the mission and the other person’s role is to try to keep the focus on them to give some kind of care given.

Right? So to do that, what are we looking for? The person sharing is coming from a view of self. Like I’m going to share about how this impacts me. I’m going to let you into my world, you know, underneath the frustration is some kind of fear. That’s what I’m saying. Talking about view of self, not view of other. And the partner who’s listening is not the time for them to talk about their view of self and what’s going on with them. Right? We’re going to get to that. They’re actually trying to stay in that empathetic place to understand that part.

Laurie Watson, PhD (15:59.212)
Okay, I get to go first. Okay.

George (16:02.084)
Okay, what a shocker.

George (16:08.372)
But if as we’re preparing and like as Laurie saying, Maria is saying, I’m to go first, right? I got to do something with that part of me that wants to protest the unfairness of that because you always go first. I never talk about my stuff like if I let that part out, it’s going to lead to a negative cycle. I got to say, you know what? I’m going to show I’m going to get my turn. But right now, I really do want to know Maria and what’s going on with her.

in her world that allows me to make a more informed decision when I know what I’m up against.

Laurie Watson, PhD (16:39.092)
Yeah, there’s something strategic at letting somebody else go first with their complaint, right? You know how you know what you’re dealing with. Okay, so I’m going to take a deep breath. I’m to say look at we’ve been here, Joey, 1000 times, and I don’t know how to solve it.

George (16:44.708)
That’s true.

George (16:49.294)
Alright, so let’s try it. Joey’s

Laurie Watson, PhD (17:01.516)
You know, we’re two bright people and we got three bright kids and we’re up against it. And we have so much going on in our life that I get exhausted. I think for me, you know, when you come through the door.

It’s like the Calvary is here. It’s like help has arrived and I’m just so grateful to see you and my fantasy is that you’re gonna put your shoulder next to my shoulder and we’re gonna dig in and get all this stuff done because by that time, I’ve already been dealing with the kids after school for an hour and a half. I’ve driven them hither and yon and I’m stressed and I can see how much more needs to be done, not to mention

and just the, you know, it’s like the arsenic hour. It’s like when every, all the needs can, all the needs kind of combine together and you wanna feed your family arsenic instead of dinner, you know, cause you’re just so sick of everybody. It’s like, I feel so much stress in those moments.

George (18:10.798)
Mm-hmm.

No, I hear you. think that is normal to want the cavalry to help. Like you’re stressed out and you think your teammates come in and you know, I want to help and it’s got to be frustrating when you want help and you’re not getting help you need. Right. So that you’re just trying to let me know that’s important that you really, you want to figure out how to do that differently. You know, I work hard and you know, that’s, but it’s just the time and doesn’t work if you need help. And then I start talking about other things. I just add more pressure to your plate.

taking pressure off your plate.

Laurie Watson, PhD (18:45.1)
Yeah, and I know we got other conversations here to go that are important too. So I’m not forgetting about your sexual needs or other things between us, but it’s like this constantly flares up. And I know it feels to you like I have a lot of time during the day to get stuff done and I should be prepping this and that but.

I don’t know, with three kids, it’s like somebody always needs a run from here and there. And there’s meals to plan and groceries to shop for and meetings to attend. I mean, just, and I’m not the most organized person in the world. I know that. But I mean, I just, I don’t seem to think you see that I have, that I, you think I have a lot of time to accomplish all this and I just don’t. And then,

Those few hours are just really hard on me because it’s like there’s 16 fires at once. I don’t know how to put out all of them.

George (19:48.251)
So let’s pause a second just to, again, these conversations, even when we’re trying to be responsive, like there’s, there’s minefields in it. So every time Maria talks about what I’m doing and goes to view of other talking about me, that makes it more likely that my brain wants to defend from that. we were trying to kind of keep the conversation centered on this Maria’s struggle, right? It’s makes a lot of sense why she wants help and it sucks to not get the help you want. The more she stays talking,

And I got to also try to stop myself from wanting to kind of jump in and, you know, take some of those things and defend myself.

Laurie Watson, PhD (20:29.996)
Organizer. Yeah, I mean, I think this is a very heated conversation between people because it’s often gone on for years. And I can feel as I take her on, her frustration. And there’s a lot that needs to come out.

And I think she’s doing a good job here. She’s starting to describe the problem. She’s starting to take responsibility. These are my weaknesses. These are my challenges. She’s not laying it all at his feet. She’s saying, she is asking for some sense of consideration about, yeah, I’m not that organized. I know a lot of women who are trying to manage this, they have lower energy than their partners. And they just.

George (21:07.44)
Yeah.

George (21:16.144)
Maria’s got to resist the urge though when Joey is actually listening and giving her and focusing on her and wants to do something differently. This is so often when pursuers want to pile on and give a couple more examples of the same thing and that’s really terrible timing for somebody who’s actually trying to keep the focus on the other person. So this is the discipline and we all need to get better in these conversations like…

If Joey’s in focus in on Maria and he actually does feel the struggle, like I can feel myself as Joey saying, damn, you know, when I’m not defending myself, it’s okay to, I actually liked that she wants my help. I like that we’re teammates. like that, you know, it brings the part of me out that wants to do better. Right. So when I’m in that place where I’m actually shifted a little bit and I want to do better, right. Maria’s got to protect Joey from.

getting whacked in those spaces. Because then, you know, when I’m in a more vulnerable place and I hear the old messages, I’m going to just rip right back into protecting myself.

Laurie Watson, PhD (22:19.118)
So I think what she should have said and what I should have said was, first of all, thanking him for slowing it down, for listening to her, for being available emotionally to her. That would have sort of given him the success in his slowdown. OK, so let’s do that little part over again. Let’s just pretend, Joey, that you said what you said in the beginning to me, that you were hearing me, that when you

which the subject, it adds more pressure. And I would say, you know, I do really appreciate you seeing that. And I feel like that’s, that’s good wisdom. And I appreciate you being open now to listen to me, even though we’ve gone round and round on this in the past.

I do feel kind of like I have your attention, your heart, and I mean, I can feel a lot of pressure in me, because it’s been long standing in me. But I do appreciate your willingness to even have this conversation. And you know, you’re not getting mad at me, and that feels really good.

George (23:25.424)
Well, listen, I, and I can see when I’m not as defensive. can see more of just the tough spot that you’re in. Right. It’s, it’s, it’s okay to want help and you should want my help. And you know, it would be better. mean, I have all my reasons I could come up with, but I’m really trying to focus on you and just kind of acknowledge that not only do you not get to help, but then we get into a fight on top of it. So what I’m feeling bad is like, you have too much on your plate. You think you’re getting some taken off and you actually get more put

which just sucks for you and I’m sorry for that.

Laurie Watson, PhD (23:58.444)
Yeah, thank you. I do have, I think this is the reality, is I have too much on my plate. Maybe together we have too much on our plate. You know, maybe your energy is low when you come through the door, because you’ve, you you’re exhausted from work, or you’re just mentally exhausted and hoping for something else, but.

For whatever reason, we don’t have enough for those several hours, from schools out to bedtime. Those are tough hours, and we don’t have enough.

So I’m not sure how we solve it, but I think that’s the basis. I don’t have enough to handle it all by myself. And sometimes I think that that’s what you expect or that’s what you’re conveying to me. I’m not saying you are expecting that or that, but that’s what I get if you don’t stand up after dinner and start the dishes. It’s like, I feel so alone. yeah. So, okay.

George (24:32.416)
Yeah.

George (25:01.368)
Again, this is why these conversations take a long time because it triggers a lot of stuff. And if you finally actually feel like you’re being heard, it’s super important that that kind of sinks in. So, you know, from my perspective as the person given the care given, I have two options here. I either am going to keep the focus on Maria and help her and give her care given, or if I can’t because I get too triggered in my own emotions and messages of criticism.

If I’m not going to give care given then I got to give Maria permission to protect herself. I can’t have it both ways. I can’t not give it and then expect her to understand what’s going on for me. Like people are going to protect themselves when they’re not getting care given. That is universal. So if you’re not giving it, you better take ownership for that person. Well, then it’s okay. You’re not going to get caregiving. You’re probably should protect yourself. You know, I feel like when people really own those two options, it’s simple, simplifies the process.

Laurie Watson, PhD (26:01.056)
Exactly, exactly. So I think our takeaway for our listeners are one, separate out the conversation, right? Is it sex? Is it emotional connection? Or is it caretaking? And caretaking is you got my back. I know you’re there for me when I need you emotionally. And it is also, I know you’re there for me with practical instrumental help.

So which conversation are we having? And then separate them out first. That’s the first thing. Second thing, that’s your mission. Second thing I’m hearing you say is one person’s the receiver and they got to dial in to not be defensive, to keep their focus on the partner who has the complaint.

George (26:35.056)
That’s Jews in your mission right there.

Laurie Watson, PhD (26:50.742)
Right? It’s how do I care for them in this moment? How do I listen to them? How do I validate, reflect back what they’re saying and just stay with them and not go into my own defense or my own needs?

George (27:05.07)
Yeah, exactly. mean, empathy, which is the heart of caregiving and curiosity is you got to walk in your partner’s shoes, you got to feel what they’re feeling, right? And it’s not about what you’re feeling in a moment. It’s about understanding their world.

You know, and then it’s got to be reciprocated. We got to switch missions. Joey didn’t get to talk about, you know, why does he get defensive? Right. Because he’s hearing messages emotionally of criticism when he’s exhausted and doesn’t have a lot of resources. Joey hasn’t talked about sexually, you know, feeling depleted and not being recharged that way. There’s a lot of conversations we need to have. And you can see if couples are trying to have all of them at the same time, it’s a setup for failure.

Laurie Watson, PhD (27:45.59)
Yep. I think we have to do about 16 episodes on this. But thanks for listening, y’all.

George (27:50.384)
and keep it hot y’all.