In today’s episode, we are talking about desire based on the work of sex therapist, Dr. Emily Jamea. Dr. Jamea shares that your partner can contribute to your desire but they can’t create it.
Join Laurie and George in an engaging conversation on who is responsible for the creation of desire in a relationship and how this affects pursuers and withdrawers alike. Their dialogue addresses the effect of how caretaking duties affect sexual desire and how each individual partner can work to create internal eroticism. You’ll find yourself asking these questions, “what gives me the tingles?, do I want them or what do I want?, and what would turn me on right now?” Make sure to download this and share with your lover to answer these questions together. Keep it hot, y’all!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:02.577)
So George, Dr. Emily Jamea, who’s been one of our guests and wrote Anatomy of Desire Five Secrets to Create Connection and Passion. I saw her on Instagram and she said, your partner can contribute to your arousal but can’t create it. And I want to talk to you about that.
George (00:18.669)
Mm.
Create and desire an arousal, my favorite topic.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:27.217)
You know, I think many of us think about, I think especially as women, we’re socialized to believe that the male partner is supposed to create the moment, create desire, create a spark in us. You know, we’re often responsive lovers, and it’s fine to be that way, but I thought that this was a really unique way of thinking about it, right?
George (01:12.206)
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. mean, I think we’re two pursuers that are always pushing these damn maturers to access their own desire. We just find all these creative ways of trying to do that. you know, I think there is something, we’ve done a lot of podcasts on, there’s a selfish nature to desire that you, there’s a chasing nature. Like people that could chase or want it for themselves or create it themselves, like.
They have desires. there’s something to that. is super important. Like how do you, if you don’t find yourself kind of taking responsibility for your own desire, you might be more receptive and there might be something fine about that. That’s the balance. Maybe we could talk about, but like when you lose the ability to create your own desire, desire, you’re in trouble. mean, that that’s so often what happens to the sexual withdraw. So I do love to just what she’s saying. I just,
You know, there’s there’s some balance around receptivity that it don’t all have to be created. There’s something co-created, but I don’t know. Let’s let’s keep going with.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:14.025)
Okay. I mean, I think that what she’s kind of stressing is that erotic energy belongs to the self. You know, that you have eroticism inside you. you know, Mike Moran, who’s a supervisor in EFT and does a lot of work in teaching about sexuality, both for professionals and for lay people, you he says that eroticism is chi.
It’s your life force. And I like that because I think it’s true that that curiosity and fantasy and spice that comes with having kind of a sensual receptor, you know, is what makes life worth living. It’s exciting. And you have to have a little of it for yourself. I don’t know. I just think if you go through
George (03:23.374)
Yeah, but I think you’d have Chi and be responsive. I just need, I think it’s both. mean, there’s something about testosterone. I don’t have to do a lot of work. If I’m like shaving, my wife comes out and shower. Boom. mean, it’s online for me. I mean, that’s how quick, you know, desire is. That’s not me.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:40.38)
I want to be a boy.
George (03:41.826)
Well, that’s what I’m saying. If you have that, it’s a luxury. It’s not like I’m doing all this work to create my own desire. mean, it’s instantaneous. There’s not even a thought that’s kind in that process. you know, I mean,
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:52.719)
Yeah, yeah. This really is directed at women then is what you’re saying. This idea of that you have to cultivate eroticism. Probably most women have to do this versus men who have testosterone.
George (04:05.837)
Well, let’s talk, but there are lot of men that are sexual witchers that life does things to them that might override testosterone, whatever else, and they find themselves more in the receptive role and more hesitant. you know, so I just want, I think there is somebody who’s receptive. There is something beautiful about your partner and creating an environment that
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:18.065)
Sure, sure,
George (04:29.033)
urges your desire to come online. Like I don’t want to lose that. That’s another way into desire. But I think if we’re just totally dependent on that, if we can’t create our own, that becomes a problem. think both are important, I guess, is what I’m thinking.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:43.633)
Yeah, well, certainly. I think though she’s drawing attention to the fact that…
It’s both a responsibility and something good for us to have eroticism that’s alive on the inside, to know what gives us tingles, to have erotic memories that we access. I’ve talked about this a lot. Gleaning is what I call it. You’re going about your life and there is so much
George (04:53.634)
Yeah.
George (04:58.017)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:18.801)
sexual stimuli in the environment. There’s songs, there’s billboards, there’s conversation. I mean, lots of people are talking about sex and you can kind of block that off and say, okay, that’s not something I’m interested in. Or you can say, oh, this is a little reminder. This song from high school that just came on, I remember the boy I was in love with when that song came on. And that happens to me all the time because I was always in love with some boy. A lot of different songs.
a lot of different boys. anyway, you know, like remembering that and how you felt and all the longing that you felt and the anticipation and the desire.
Even thinking about that now, George, can like, it’s like building something inside me that when the moment is ready with my husband, you know, I’ve thought about sex a little bit. I’ve thought about desire. I’ve thought about things that turn me on. I’ve accepted from the environment this thing that builds inside me an erotic base.
George (06:27.725)
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think it’s been one of our main missions in this podcast is trying to get people to get more excited about their own desire to invest more into it, to be more intentional, right, to to think about it. Because if you never it’s like working out, if you never do it, you’re never going to develop the muscles. I mean, at some point, you’ve got to take some responsibility for your own erotic chi, as Mike would say. So I do love the intentionality of
creating, and we talk about glimmers, right? There we are erotic beings. It’s impossible not to be. If you train yourself to look for it more, you’re going to grow that side of you. So that is, I love what she’s saying with that. just think sometimes hearing that, mean, I want to get 10 female withdrawers sexually on our podcast so they could like speak to what it
Does that feel pressuring? Does that feel like another message of more work that you need to do? Right? Like, how do we, how do we honor the receptivity that, you know, is okay, not having to work so hard too. And I think a combination of the two that’s saying, sometimes you don’t want to have to think about this stuff. Sometimes you want your partner to create a scene that that is a really natural way for you to enter the erotic space. And we want you to hold onto that.
I guess what we’re saying is that’s not enough, right? To just be receptive and not take responsibility for creating your own desire some of the time too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:02.769)
Okay, I hear that. I think the idea of having some sexual withdrawers on the show that we can talk to that are different than how we think would be so amazing. Do you have some friends that we can do that? Don’t you have a whole group of people that you talk to that are sexual withdrawers?
George (08:24.851)
I have such a stereotypical group of macho male sexual pursuers, emotional withdrawers, and the flip sexual-retrograde female emotional pursuers. It’s almost a stereotype. So we could get like four or five of those couples on, it’s actually comical. Some of these dinners that we have where we try to talk about these things.
It really is like people on different planets half the time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:55.589)
Really? And do they openly kind of talk about it and discuss it? Yeah.
George (08:58.795)
Yeah, yeah. We had a conversation around, like even our book title. We talk about the need for secure love, that emotional, vulnerable connection and hot sex, right? That and just that word hot sex for a lot of the female sexual withdrawers felt like a pressured goal instead of, hey, I want connected sex, which feels like a safer role for them. Like they love connected sex.
That’s kind of what they’re looking for. This idea of.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:29.499)
But isn’t that what hot sex is? Just for the argument.
George (09:32.301)
For us it is, for us it is, but the world hears the word hot sex and it thinks of you know how you look, how you perform. I just think it’s just different. We talked about some of this translation. Whatever it… There’s something about desire and arousal and creating it your own that I think is a striking statement for a lot of people.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:42.673)
Porn sex, performance sex, yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:56.561)
I want to go out to dinner with you and your friends. think that would be really fun. Because I go out with dinner with women who want sex. A lot of my female friends want sex. don’t know. I just landed in a pool of female sexual pursuers. And that’s what feels normal in my world.
George (10:01.089)
next time.
George (10:20.929)
Yeah. Attract likes attract likes, right? So we surround ourself, but this is, I think we’re onto something. We got to find the balance and this is where we welcome the feedback of our listeners. Like, you know, we’ve constantly said throughout this whole podcast that we all got to take responsibility to invest in our own erotic energy. So I think that’s what you started us off with.
quote, right? You know, we, we, we gotta work on it. And is there more to that? Or what do people want to add to that?
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:58.639)
Yeah. OK. Let’s come back and talk some more about her ideas in this. Are we on a break here? OK. OK.
George (11:08.363)
Yep. Yeah, we’re good the second half there, so.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:12.591)
So yes, we have to work on it. I think even people who have sort of that instant desire, desire isn’t the only thing that you got to work on, right? I mean, there’s a little bit of finesse in there and how to communicate that desire in a way that, you know, your partner can receive it and how to even talk about your desire because even if your body is turned on, I don’t know, I imagine there’s still quite a bit to talk about.
one idea that she had that I also liked was it is shifting from do I want them do I want it to what do I want you know do I want to have sex with them right now it is one question certainly but what part of me wants to be awakened and how do I want to be awakened and how do I want to be desired and what acts you know
would turn me on right now. Maybe right now I’m not thinking I want intercourse, but I’m thinking, you know, yeah, I could start out cuddling and kissing and I need a back rub and then we’ll see, you know, like taking agency about your desire versus sort of waiting for it to happen or making it a duty to respond.
George (12:33.997)
What I love about the intentionality is it’s probably going to reveal the blocks, right? When you try to say, what do I want? And you’re like, I actually just want sleep. this probably an important conversation to have there with your partner, right? That’s where these sexual conversations lead to these emotional conversations. If you’re not feeling connected, if you’re not feeling interested, like the things that are happening outside the bedroom are probably influencing what’s happening to your erotic energy in the bedroom.
And this is an opportunity to have those conversations. That’s the cool part about if you face your own desire and take responsibility to it, it’s going to reveal what’s blocking a desire, which is really a critical conversation to have.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:14.415)
Yeah, I
One of the things you know, you’ve been on the caregiving cycle, emphasizing that, which is the third cycle in a romantic relationship, right? There’s three behavioral systems, sexual, emotional, and caregiving. But one of the latest things that I’ve been reading in the research is that caregiving is also instrumental. So that means I get actual help and support putting the kids to bed, doing the dishes. Like a lot of women are falling into bed exhausted and then they’re complaining saying,
George (13:37.985)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:45.739)
Look at, I don’t get enough help, I’m so tired. And that is caregiving, to help your partner when there is a need for shit to get done. You know, it’s like, you got to step up and do that too. And I think that it’s a failure sometimes in the caregiving cycle when partners don’t see the instrumental need of what has to happen.
George (14:06.765)
Yeah. I guess that’s my shout out to the women listening, like how unfair to not give you caregiving, which blocks your erotic energy because you’re exhausted. And then you’re blamed. Like what’s wrong with you? Erotically. Can’t you fight for your own erotic energy? It’s like fucking help me with my instrumental stuff. So again, I think this is, this is why, you know, I’m not so scared of these conversations because I know it’s going to lead us to where
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:24.773)
Yeah.
George (14:33.697)
they need to get more care given, which will free up their energy to be more available towards that around.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:40.271)
Yeah, no, and I mean, I think that this is what I’ve been saying for a long time is that resentment is the monster under the bed, right? It’s like if you’re resentful because the load is not being shared and you’re exhausted and then, you know, that resentment builds up. It’s like it’s really hard to feel sexy when you’re resentful and you feel like you’ve been doing more than your fair share. It’s tough. so I imagine some of that, you know,
George (14:48.204)
Mm-hmm.
George (15:24.693)
Yeah, and this is why I think I would add to her statement to make it more full. It’s like a lot of times we do need our partners care given and our partners help to then be able to access our own desire. This is not just a self choice. If you don’t have capacity because you’re drowning in life, how unfair is it to blame that person for not fighting more, having more agency for their desire? Like, let’s pull them out of the water from drowning. And then they got to take that step of
putting that freed up energy towards their own erotic agency.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:56.297)
And this is the cycle. The cycle is so much about the push and pull in all three places that can snarl up into one big tangle. And we know that that snarl certainly suffocates sex.
George (16:04.897)
you
George (16:12.236)
Yeah.
George (16:15.809)
So if you free up energy and you mitigate the impact of the negative cycle, there is more space for partners to then say, hey, what do I want out of sex? I love that line. Like, what do I want?
Not what is my partner want if I’m always doing it for my partner, I’m always just waiting for my father. If it’s always other focus, like it’s harder to access that erotic energy, that chasing part of you that wants something.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:56.365)
or ask that question or even I just don’t think women ask themselves and I don’t think the culture asked them, what do you want? You should be thinking about your own desires sexually. It’s really about how can I look sexy to attract someone to keep their attention? And how can I make them happy sexually? It’s it’s really not a culture that affirms that women have sexual desires that should be honored and spoken about and talked about. So this is like
George (17:26.647)
Well, what about if we shifted a little bit? I I agree.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:26.804)
It turns the culture on its head.
George (17:33.217)
for the most part, I’ve been trained my whole life to express what I want, where my wife hasn’t, and it’s not an even playing ground. But there are plenty of areas where I think women can access. why, I watched my wife go shopping with her friends, and they’re pretty damn good at knowing what they want. You know, what, I don’t even know all these different types of bags that they have and shoes that they have and all like this, this, this whole world of watts and kind of things that are.
are really good. There’s been a lot of investment in energy and understanding that. So how do we harness that part of them that does know what they want and knows how to get what they want and chase what they want. If we use an example, like shopping and apply that towards sexuality.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:14.097)
being opinionated about fashion, about beauty, about how they manage to decorate their home. There’s a lot of opinions. I think that many of that is honestly still a gift, right? That they’re looking fashionable so that their partner will find them attractive. I mean, it’s not…
George (18:37.849)
My friend’s wife gets like a message every couple days on a bag or a necklace or something that would be a really great idea. So again, that is actively his wife actively pursuing what she wants and trying to give him signals to kind of communicate getting her needs met. She’s really good at it when it comes to that. So I’m just trying.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:02.097)
So your friend’s wife is sending him messages about if you want to make me happy, buy this bag. But doesn’t say, could you go down on me tonight?
George (19:06.975)
Yeah. You know, this Gucci bag and this size. Yeah, but really good at explicitly express on her needs. And I’m just, well, that’s what I’m saying. Like, how do we tap into that part of her that does know what she wants and communicates it directly has no problem making a decision on what she wants and get more practice sexually with that. Like that’s a glimmer that you’re talking about, like tapping into an energy that does know how to express what.
We want like, just want to grow that in all areas of our life. think it makes for easier relationships where we can send clearer signals.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:43.899)
I just want to know does your husband, does your friends, wait, the husband of the wife, does he like hear the message below that? What is the message?
George (19:53.857)
No, he does what I think a lot of wives do sexually. He’s like, just try to, you know, I can stretch this out. can’t do this. about next month? Like it’s, just like fights her over the process and you know, eventually we’ll, we’ll give in. Right. Which is that’s not chasing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:08.187)
Yeah. What is the message though? What’s underneath the message? It’s not, it probably isn’t just I’m greedy and want all these things. There’s some message underneath it that maybe he’s not hearing. That’s a good question. I think that gift giving is a love language.
George (20:15.021)
Well, now you’re going deep.
George (20:22.035)
What do take it as?
George (20:31.085)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:31.971)
and that it’s about constancy. That you think about me, you think about my value, you think about wanting to please me, that that’s the underlying dynamic in a person who wants gifts from their partner. Like I wanna know that I am in your mind and that you’re thoughtful enough to know how to make me happy. Like I really do think when there’s flowers sitting on the counter for me, like I look at those
George (21:12.171)
the flowers I’m like what a waste of 150 bucks we’re gonna throw it out in two days what the heck so we live on different planets sub at a time Laurie I’ve I’ve I’ve overcome that yes please nudge me they’re my wife’s favorite flowers and it’s well worth her joy for me to do that so but yeah
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:19.737)
I’m going to nudge you in peony season.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:31.301)
But it’s about constancy too. It’s about you hold her in your mind and think she’s valuable enough that it doesn’t matter if you throw it out in two days.
George (21:39.234)
Yeah.
I think it’s, I think it’s more than that. think there’s a lot too about how you fit in with people, how people see you when you have certain things and you’re wearing certain things. There’s a whole culture built around that too, that it’s, it’s stress. It’s, it’s, there’s a lot of pressure.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:57.081)
And I gotta say, you all live in New York and there is a lot of pressure up there. mean, tremendous pressure. It is, but New York is different. mean, it really is different. Lots of pressure. Okay, anyway, back to sex, George. Come on, where did we go here? Okay, anyway, I would just say in terms of thank you to Emily Jemea for her work and her book on…
George (22:01.803)
Well, it’s everywhere.
George (22:13.067)
Back to sex, we got lost. We got lost.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:43.951)
I said it. Okay. I just want to say thank you to Dr. Emily Jamea and her work on Instagram, her book that she wrote, Anatomy of Desire, Five Secrets to Create Connection and Passion. She really raises, I think, a lot of questions that are important. And I’m thankful for this idea to discuss it with you, George, because you always bring out a different perspective. And I love talking about sex with you and hearing a male brain in your brain. So thanks.
George (23:12.755)
Well, same here. And I mean, again, this is the heart of the message. How do people find that balance between their desire and their partner’s desire and make all that work together? It can be complicated, but it’s also the most beautiful thing we have. So we never get bored of talking about it, do we, Laurie?
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:31.931)
Never do. Okay. Thanks for listening.
George (23:35.617)
Keep it hot, y’all.
