Do sex and intimacy need security or mystery to ignite the flame? That is the question we are exploring in today’s show based on the work of Dr. Barry McCarthy. Join George and Laurie as they get curious exploring the need for security to have sexual novelty or if mystery and anticipation increase desire. Either outcome is going to get your wheels spinning and we hope you invite your partner to a thrilling conversation to cross this bridge.
Our hosts remind listeners that sexual creativity and risk will be more successful if there is a designed conversation. It is important to be intentional and make a suggestion to your partner, and be open minded to their feedback. We make a clear distinction between this conversation and one that is pressure filled. From this episode you will take away how to design this conversation, taking in feedback and how to bring up taking new sexual risks together. Keep it hot, y’all!
Transcript
George (00:41.463)
Let’s talk about bridging secure attachment with novelty and mystery and all that other yummy good stuff, Laurie.
George (00:54.008)
Ooh, well, I’m always excited when Laurie’s reading a new article, getting excited, trying to always kind of understand this topic a little bit better. It’s your superpower, that just endless curiosity to just know and to figure it out and to kind of push the leading edges. so we have a…
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:14.094)
It’s true, I’ve been curious, George, since I was three years old about sex and the whole mystery of this thing. I remember being little, somehow or another, maybe five, and asking my mother, isn’t there anything else you can tell me about it?
George (01:51.094)
No, you’re just so loud it’s blasting my ears so I turned something down.
George (02:03.919)
This doesn’t make me sound lower, right? Or does it? That’s all right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:14.016)
Okay, so the rest of the world, you were saying, is enjoying my curiosity. Start there again.
George (02:20.257)
So the rest of the world is enjoying the fruits of your curiosity, Laurie. And I don’t think our listeners understand how often we have some of these conversations offline, right? Just trying to get clearer. There’s so much around this area of sex and intimacy that’s really not clear people. You know, we’re all doing it and enjoying it or struggling with it, but, you know, we’re trying to break it down and, you know, this conversation between
secure attachment and what we need to feel safe to be able to be enjoy sex versus this need to for novelty mystery, not knowing, anticipating what could possibly happen and finding a balance. And this has been a debate debate in the field forever, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:04.991)
Right, exactly. Do we start from security or do we start from mystery? Right, I mean, I think there’s a part of people who talk about…
you know, early sexual experiences with people that they barely know, maybe hookups or something, and maybe it feels really, really hot versus something with their partner who they love and adore, but it becomes rote and maybe duller. And so, you know, and they long for that part of that experience of hot sex that they used to have or they have had.
I mean, I guess I think of married sex as somewhat maintenance, know, it’s tension release, it’s bonding, it’s pleasurable. It’s, you know, there are times that it’s kind of on the lower end, maybe of what we could feel in our bodies. But, you know, we don’t have time for all that or something. So we just we, you know, we we do it to stay connected. And then there are other times that it’s
really highly erotic and there’s a certain set of circumstances that you know makes it that way and I I think it’s probably unrealistic to think that married sex is going to be hot all the time right
that that’s something else. There’s something about that. But if we think I’m never going to have hot sex again, that’s pretty depressing. You know, I mean, I have to kind of hold out for sometimes are going to be really, really exciting. And and so how do we maybe plan for that and become intentional about that? And I read this article by Barry McCarthy, and he had some really interesting ideas about it. The thoughts about that for you, George, like.
George (05:02.405)
All right.
I’ve never gotten the dualistic nature of these arguments. mean, for me, it’s both. mean, you need safety, security, and kind of deep love for a partner, and that you need to mix it up and be creative and fun and not know. And I think that’s what the research around great lovers say. They do both. You got to keep working towards…
you know, not knowing yourself and your partner and bringing in different things, but also knowing each other more deeply in a way you’re never going to know someone else. So I’ve always felt it’s both of them are really super important towards, you know, having great sex, but I’m interested in what McCarthy is saying about this that feels a bit new to you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:47.086)
Yeah, I think that one thing he says in this article I read was that unpredictability and mystery is kind of necessary for sexual desire. And it facilitates sexual desire to not always know what’s gonna happen. And so his way of doing that is really to have…
George (06:01.753)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:12.864)
an intention to have unpredictable sexual scenarios and techniques with each other. So, you when we’re partnered with somebody over a long period of time, it’s that intentionality that we can have because we’re, I think what you just said, we are secure with each other and so we can keep wondering about ourselves as erotic beings and wondering about our partner and maybe designing together things that bring that mystery to it.
Maybe it’s not designing together, right? Because then we all know what’s going to happen. But insecurity, doing something different, something that your partner would not expect. I was watching a television show and there was this couple and…
they were on a lake or something and of course they were a new couple so this kind of isn’t my argument here but you know she just unpredictably strips down and jumps into the water you know and kind of says are you coming and I’m like that was really really sexy you know I didn’t expect that to happen and so I can kind of see the appeal right of your partner doing something that is not their ordinary move
George (07:27.373)
Yeah, it has to stay within their window of tolerance, right? I liked when you said that we’re designed together just to talk about what could be possibilities that both partners would enjoy without needing maybe to get into the specifics of it all. But I think that’s what shoots down this risk taking is when you try something new and your partner blows you blows you up and I’m like, I’m not interested in that. What do you know that hurts? So there’s something about designing like, hey, Friday night.
anything goes or like, you know, we’re to try something different. Like you’re getting your partners buy in that, that this is our time to explore or experiment. Like being intentional about that. don’t think most couples do that, right? They just, one person just tries it and it’s the other person’s not ready for it. And then it sets off these negative cycles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:59.086)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:14.636)
Right. Right, exactly. And I think you’re talking about an ongoing conversation as a sexual couple, you know, that you can kind of decide together to be unpredictable, ironically. You know, like that this evening I’m willing to go for whatever, whatever you want to try and…
George (08:29.966)
Yes.
George (08:37.625)
That might be too big of a statement.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:40.078)
Okay. You know, and yeah, yeah, sort of what are the parameters? I think that, you know, where it changes from security to coercion is when one person kind of says, I want you to do what I want you to do, or that means you don’t love me. And they start to pressure.
George (08:41.967)
Let’s put some god rails on that, Laurie.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:05.112)
their partner to do to expand beyond their own self integrity, right? And what you’re talking about the guardrails is, within our knowing guardrails, you know, what would be, you know, let’s, let’s do something, let’s plan for something that’s different.
George (09:24.965)
And that’s where we talk about gas pedals and brakes that I find so helpful, right? It’s like, what are the things that might turn you on, but you’re afraid to be rejected, so you just keep it to yourself. And the best place to have that conversation designed together where you’re talking about it, not in the midst of trying it, right? I mean, I think that creates some safety on both sides to say, listen, I do.
have this fantasy about being the caveman. And I’m afraid that if I try that, you’re going to get freaked out. is that something you might be interested in? When would be a time? We don’t have to take the mystery out of it to prepare people for the possibility.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:08.214)
And I think preparing for the possibility is something that McCarthy says is positive anticipation, which sparks desire and arousal. So when we kind of know Friday night’s coming, let’s say it’s the Friday night caveman adventure, you know, it’s like, okay, you know, you don’t exactly know, maybe a little anxious, but in a excited sort of way, right? Excitement and fear have some similarities, right? My family has always talked
George (10:14.689)
Mm-hmm
George (10:22.328)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:37.988)
about that fear is excitement without breath. You know, like when you just you’re frozen, but excitement is that kind of anxious place, but you’re still breathing. And so that anticipation can kind of help us look forward to something without knowing and then an unpredictable technique.
George (10:44.677)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:02.186)
It disrupts routine. And I think that most of us, when we’re married, we have quite a routine. I have a routine, you know? And I like my routine, frankly. You know, I get a lot of fun out of my routine. So it’s fine. But…
George (11:17.573)
Anybody want to know what Laura’s routine is?
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:21.582)
I would say every time. mean, even like, you you talk about how some encounters, 15 % of all encounters, George, end badly. I’m like…
I don’t know, bad sex for me is fine, you know? It’s fine. It’s like getting naked, having sex, touching. I don’t care if it fails or doesn’t work or I don’t climax or he doesn’t climax. mean, it’s just bad sex is a good time as far as I’m concerned.
George (11:51.983)
but you’ve trained yourself to really be welcome to feedback and to, to be okay knowing it’s not possible that everything’s going to work all the time. You’re going to get a cramp. It’s the wrong position. It kind of sounded better in your head than what it looked like in real life. And like, I think that’s a big part of couples creating an environment to take risks. mean, and, it’s also important if the risk is, is outside your window of tolerance and it’s too much, you got to say, no, you got to be able to put up a break that
is able to be respected by your partner. If we’re pushing our body past what feels good and safe, then that’s, that’s, you know, that’s what’s training our body not to want that sex. So, mean, I’m hoping our listeners are saying, yeah, Friday nights caveman night, we’re to try something different. And one part of them probably is more excited than the other because it’s more of what they’re initiating. They’re chasing it. They’re wanting it. Any other partners going with it to see what happens, but we got to be open to that other partner, not enjoying it as much.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:49.006)
Yeah. And I mean, I think there’s such a wide variety of experiences between two people in one encounter. Like, you know, it might be one person has an orgasm and the other doesn’t. It might be you have an orgasm and it’s just tension release and it doesn’t really add to connection. You know, it might be that you don’t have an orgasm, but you feel very deeply satisfied. You know, I mean, the variety is endless and certainly, I think,
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:22.15)
One person may have an entirely different experience. We want them to feel safe. And the other person maybe who’s excited and using their imagination to create something unpredictable might be more into it. maybe the sexual withdraw kind of comes along, gets excited. Maybe not, but says, it’s fine. It’s within my window of tolerance. So let’s go for it. I think another thing that McCarthy talks about is novel scenarios.
how can you stimulate your imagination and get erotically creative, which we know is basically something that secure couples can and do do. They do use their imagination.
George (14:08.229)
I love the anticipation and that is part of the excitement. You know, what could happen, expecting, being ready to pivot if it doesn’t. I mean, you’re not really sure and that’s an important part of the journey and exploration and play. I mean, if watch kids play, they don’t know exactly what they’re gonna do. It’s not all scripted out for them. It’s not routine and boring. I mean, there’s some spontaneity and creativity and you can design that together instead of just winging it. So let’s come back and get more into.
An example of
George (14:54.477)
curious too.
I.
just the anticipation of doing something different, right? So, Caveman Friday would be, know, sometimes it’s about romance and sometimes it’s more, I think a lot of men have, you know, this idea of it being more physical, of it being more like the movies and it’s just kind of this kind of passionate thing. It’s, you know, that’s just a different type of sex.
Like, so if we are having a conversation, like, do you want to give that a shot? You know, what would, what would work for you? Because if we’re not risking enough, it’s boring. If we risk too much, it’s not safe. So it’s trying to, how do you supposed to know you’re not in the other person’s? You got to have some kind of conversation with you.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:44.67)
yeah, there’s a country song that is like, wait I gotta find it. Country song about gotta have you now.
And it says exactly that. I’ll think of the name and probably one of our listeners will send it to me. But it’s the, know, sometimes I want to romance you and stuff, but sometimes I just want to remind you I want you, I need you, you know, gotta have you. And I’m coming over and, you know, we’re getting to business, getting down to business. And it was like, it’s a really sexy song. It’s that, I think what’s sexy about it is the energy, right? The energy that he’s bringing to the experience.
George (16:26.917)
So if you were the female partner in this example, how would you get yourself ready for that caveman experience? That’s going to be more of this carnal, passionate kind of physical encounter, less the romantic, which might be what you want a lot of the time. But this is like, what would you need to do to shift into that?
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:44.718)
I mean, one of the things I think about is, yeah, maybe I need certain things to feel aroused and to feel safe. But do I need them every single time? Is there a way that…
I can kind of meet my partner in this stop, drop and roll experience, right? Like, let’s just go for it. And I think maybe, you know, if, let’s say if I wasn’t a sexual pursuer, you know, I might think about, okay, we’re having drinks at a certain time and we’re going to do it, you know, and it’s going to be really exciting. So what do I need to get ready? Maybe I know my body needs a really long time to get aroused. I might take a bath, I might masturbate.
to kind of get aroused and knowing that arousal actually gives me less inhibition. So maybe I wouldn’t climax during masturbation, but I would be aroused just knowing that already I’m kind of excited.
George (17:48.421)
What’s the point of that, Lori? That’s such a novel concept. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:51.82)
this really really yeah well yeah but this is what i’m saying right i mean as a woman you can masturbate and kind of stop and feel aroused
and be more ready to go even further. I mean, yeah, I mean, you’re teasing yourself. You’re sort of getting yourself ready. I know, I think that’s a great idea. I mean, isn’t it… I mean, isn’t it the same thing as using a vibrator to get going and then kissing and holding and, you know, maybe…
George (18:07.045)
So you’re teasing yourself.
George (18:16.933)
I think it’s a great idea. I never thought of that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:29.014)
making love and finishing without a vibrator. mean, it’s the same sort of concept. It’s just less immediate.
George (18:35.748)
Mm-hmm.
George (18:40.183)
it, you’re starting your clock earlier than just being counted. you’re also, you’re tapping into something in you that wants something, right? That’s the chase element that I think both partners need a little bit of, you know, if they’re trying something different, like what can you get out of this? I mean, a lot of times you might just be receptive to your partner, your partner wants to try it. So you want to make them happy and caregiving, which is cool.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:43.054)
Start your engine.
George (19:05.785)
But can you find something in it that you actually want? There’s a much better chance of your body getting something out of it when you can find that. So I like, as you’re saying, do you take a hot bath? You kind of start thinking about things you’re getting your body. You know, what would you like about this hot encounter? You know, that that’s something that if you, you, you can lean into is more likely it’s going to be successful for you instead of just a pressure, the moment. you’re like, all right, let me just be here for my partner. And your body’s not ready to do that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:34.198)
Yeah. Yeah. mean, I think I know my body. I know the things that get me ready sexually. I mean, I was thinking of another thing like.
Just, would, maybe I’d go to the gym and do a really hard workout beforehand. Because I know exercise gets me in touch with my body. It’s not that it’s arousing necessarily, but it does make arousal easier. It’s like your blood pressure’s pumping. You’re, you know, you’re hot, literally. I mean, maybe go to the gym, come home, hop into, you know, a hot shower. you know, I think probably if I were in that sort of scenario,
I would definitely put on something comfortable, something that I felt sexy about because that’s, you know, mostly I think.
Personally, lingerie is for me. It’s something that resets my mindset from what I wear every day, which is shorts and a t-shirt. It’s a shift. It’s like, OK, now I’m in my capghan, or I’m in lingerie, or whatever is the reset for me, because I can actually feel it on my body. Oh, this silky material, it’s it’s sex time.
George (20:54.809)
Yeah. And I like looking for something new in your partner. If your partner is going to come in as the caveman, you might notice something about your partner in that energy that’s different than most of the other times. Like, could you look for that? Or if you’re the partner coming home and your partner has taken a bath and has got some lingerie on and is trying something a little bit differently, like they’re tapping into something that’s a bit different.
new and mysterious. Like I do think there’s an excitement to that. And the more we look for it, we’re engaging that exploration. We’re engaging that part of us that’s not really sure, but wants to know more. You can feel the attraction of that, right? That’s, that’s the pull of that great sex that you’re not really sure what’s exactly going to happen.
George (21:55.703)
I think take, to take pressure off, know, to have a mindset that taps into like, is kind of what I want to do. Like, I like this about me and I want to, I want to show this part of myself. Does not be so focused on how it’s going to land and what your partner is going to think and what you’re going to do. Like to just kind of sit in your own erotic energy that says, you know, I love romance too. I love quickies. I love stress release, but like, you know, every once in a while that just have this.
kind of really carnal like, I can’t resist you and you can’t resist me. And it’s really much more physical and it’s much more like, it’s okay to want that. And it’s okay to want to act on that. And that doesn’t mean all these bad things that sometimes get attached to it. And certainly you’re open to your partner’s feedback and all that. But I so think the anxiety of all the things that could be judged and wrong suffocate that erotic energy.
And I think that’s, that’s the caveman part of me that has to say, a second. I don’t have to apologize for this. I actually just want to express it. want to give it an outlet and I just want, I want to have fun with it and see where it goes. And I don’t know that about me some of the time in that moment. I think that’s what also can make it exciting.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:11.532)
I
I think that’s really interesting and really neat because it’s so non-performance oriented, right? It’s like, I’m not trying to please my partner this time. I’m trying to please myself and I’m asking my partner to join me there. And I think so many men do get caught like, okay, is it good for her? I wanna make sure it’s good for her. And every once in a while when the focus is not about pleasing their partner, but about
George (23:29.381)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:41.892)
kind of pleasing yourself, that’s, that’s going to unleash something that’s exciting. Yeah. And that energy comes into the partnership.
George (23:46.657)
Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, we, we talk about so often the sexual pursuer is so focused on their partner that they kind of lose their own confidence, their mojo, their energy that is attractive, but they’re not showing it because they’re focused on all these other things. And if you’re going to come in as the caveman, you’re coming in as a person who wants something and knows what they want. And they’re expressing that clearly. There’s no mixed signals here, hesitations and caution. I mean, this is the time to kind of unleash an inner part of you that
might not come out on Tuesday night sex.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:24.814)
Friday night sex really different than Tuesday night sex. It’s all good. It’s all good.
George (24:32.409)
And it’s all good and it’s all important, but you know, we need some Friday nights, some of the time to be excited about what we could be, right? It could turn into a flop, but it could turn into, know, knowing something about you and your partner you haven’t known. Well, that chasing is, to me, that’s the magic of great sex. You gotta chase something.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:48.952)
chasing Cathy around the house. You could be like…
George (24:57.113)
You gotta want something. mean, that’s the not knowing. And what is it chase? I don’t know what I’m gonna, what’s gonna happen when I catch you, right? There is a not knowing element that I think is super important some of the time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:09.9)
Yeah, yes. And I think that’s what’s exciting about long-term relationship is we can take turns. We can have all kinds of sex, different kinds of sex. Maybe we have mostly routine sex, and that’s fine. But every once in a while, that’s sparking it up with caveman sex or cavewoman sex or a huge romantic fantasy. Maybe that’s what she might want.
George (25:36.313)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:39.796)
and do and set up, I don’t know. I mean, I know that one of my favorite winter setups is sex in front of the fire. We have fires almost every evening in the winter and it’s like, I like to make a little nest and it’s sex in front of the fire. it doesn’t even, I don’t know, it doesn’t even have to be wildly romantic. It’s just like the sensual experience of the warmth and.
The difference, rather than being in your own bed and doing it, it’s like you’re in a new place. There’s all this sensation and I don’t know. I just think, however you may set it up, something that’s new and novel, your mind, it’s not our ideas, it’s your mind that knows what you think is really sexy.
George (26:29.475)
Yeah, it’s important to mix that up when you find yourself saying, I don’t want to have sex on the couch. It might hurt my back or I don’t want to do it there. Let’s just go to bed. Let’s just go back to like when you’ve everything goes back to the same spot and you’re resistant to doing anything different. Like what is that saying about, you know, you and your ability to to tolerate introducing something that. It makes it more likely we’re going to do something different.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:59.246)
Yeah, exciting. Yeah, I think this does, right? I can feel it, you know, the anticipation of introducing something new sporadically. know, maybe you’re in a season that you don’t have energy for that, and that’s okay, but anticipation. You maybe it’s like, I’m gonna take you away, we’re gonna do a hotel night, end of the month, baby, and we’re gonna just have at it. I mean…
George (27:30.041)
Yeah, my last comment, if we talk about the emotional cycle, there’s no end to the amount of vulnerable conversations we want to have in all different types of settings. Like, so many people are so creative and bring novelty into these emotional, vulnerable conversations. Why are we not doing that sexually? They’re two doorways into the same place of connection, right? So I think for those listeners that might be sexual withdrawers,
what an emotional pursuer is. Like you’re really good at this in the other cycle. How do you get that part of you that does anticipate, that does think about when are we going to have this conversation? How can I bring it up? What are we talking about? There’s so many creative ways that they chase it. That same thing will work in a sexual sense.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:17.612)
Yeah, I always have said this example, but I talk to sexual withdrawers, maybe young mothers, who are planning their child’s birthday party.
And there’s so much joy and anticipation and they’re the decorations and the food and the favors and the takeaways and you know, they can see the whole thing and I’m like, you have the creativity to have a great sex life. You know, like if you could plan one night every quarter like that.
George (28:42.35)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:48.194)
You know, just one night, one hour, your partner would be over the moon. You would not be in therapy.
George (28:56.345)
The caveman and over the moon. We don’t get much better than that, Lori.
Laurie Watson, PhD (29:01.056)
Okay, love it. Thanks for listening.
George (29:05.573)
Keep it hot, baby.
