In today’s episode we are discussing how to shift from protection to pleasure. George and Laurie dive deep on what couples need to do to regain safety and repair so they can begin to tap into their erotic excitement. Pursuers and withdrawers will be able to identify their fears that create emotional and sexual blocks and what they need to share to their partner.
This helps the relationship heal and repair old wounds that keep the cycle stuck and active. When couples do this they can begin to shift to more pleasure focused connection. Safety and reassurance will lead partners to excitement and exploration. Great lovers repair their fears together and use that new, safer energy to explore. Stay current on all our upcoming events at foreplayrst.com Keep it hot y’all!
Please check out this episode’s sponsor (and help the pod!):
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s favorite lube for the last 25 years! Use the code ‘foreplay’ and get 10% off!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:04.27)
It’s to feel good, it’s supposed to connect us, but for so many couples, it’s just this place of tension and we’ve been rejected or disappointed. we really want people to see that they can heal their sexual hurts, but also find their way back to an erotic connection. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today is how do you heal your sex life? How do you repair? And then how do you make it feel passionate and safe again? Okay.
George (00:31.224)
Love it.
George (00:59.608)
Yep, SV Labs September 9th and 11th. And then we also got the couples connection coming up.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:05.782)
Yeah, our couples retreat, George and my couples retreat, and that’s going to be on September 19th. So if you’re listening and you want to come, it’s by Zoom. You can be completely anonymous. There’s partnered exercises that are just talking. It’s very safe. Couples tell us that they have never had this kind of conversation. Many couples have written in saying it’s life changing and they wish they had had the conversation years ago. So please join us there.
George (01:33.078)
and all our patrons, thank you. And for those considering, join the family. It’s a fun time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:37.91)
Yeah, we appreciate your financial support and we also appreciate your letters and your scenarios that you send us, the problems even, you know, they help form where we are directing our energy, what we can help you with. That’s really important feedback and we appreciate it.
George (01:57.664)
And brave love, the rebrand. Give us feedback what you like, anything we missing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:01.707)
Yeah. Yep, we’re thinking of changing our name from foreplay to brave love. we just love, we know that that’s really dicey at this stage in the game, but we think it’s important and it will sort of appeal to a broader audience. And that’s what we’re going for. Brave love for couples. Okay.
George (02:24.526)
Speaking of, we’re continuing to write our book and we’re at Joey Maria and we keep developing this story and you know this is our, what do they call those?
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:27.779)
yeah!
George (02:39.424)
avatars, right? These are our avatars for every couple because we’re all in this damn mess together, right,
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:45.971)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, George and I have been heavy on working together these days writing this book. I told him yesterday, because we’re talking many times a week now. I’m like, I didn’t even change my t-shirt the last two days. I’ve just been focused on the book. So. My poor husband.
George (03:06.134)
And.
Yeah, that’s it takes its toll It’s not all the glamour that people think it is I want to do a podcast and write a book and we’re not feeling sorry for ourselves. It’s an amazing opportunity and We continuously welcome feedback to make it the ideas clearer cleaner because you know, we all have it
the attention spans we have and the simpler the information, the easier it is to digest and kind of hold on to it. So we’re talking about Joey and Maria throughout, right? Joey is this emotional withdrawer, sexual pursuer. Maria is the emotional pursuer, sexual withdrawer. And we’re just trying to tell their story throughout the book of how they go from disconnection to secure attachment, right? And.
How do we heal? We’re talking about how do you get them to see cycles and working together, blame the cycle, stop blaming each other. But ultimately we’re trying to get them towards, you need new moves. You can’t keep doing the old defensive moves of getting angry or rolling over. Like that’s going to lead to the results that it typically leads to. Right? So what are the new moves, which is how you create, replace insecure attachment with secure attachment.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:42.957)
And just for the record, want to say, you know, sometimes listeners will write in and say, well, what if your partner is absolutely shut down, won’t go to therapy, won’t talk about it? It’s over. It’s like, you know, it’s such a painful thing. And I just want to say I feel for you if that’s where you’re living in that place. Like if there is absolutely no way to get through to your partner. mean, I think.
George (04:43.086)
All right.
George (05:26.762)
And we really focus in here today on that sexual part of the cycle. And as Laurie was highlighting, we really want you to think about, it’s about asking for help. It’s what do you need? When couples can ask for what they need and receive it, they have secure attachment. So in sex, there’s usually two things that we need.
We need safety with some of the fears and these negative cycles that have been beating us up for many years, right? We need that reassurance. And once we receive those, those needs are met for safety. It should redirect, it should free up energy to now be able to access what do we need for this erotic energy to come out, right? That’s blocked with all these fears and kind of insecurities that we wind up happening. So it’s like, we need two things. We need safety reassurance for us.
And then once that is met, that safety should be unleashed until, you know, what do I want to chase? What do I want sexually?
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:42.266)
and you and I go back and forth on this, it like let’s say a couple hasn’t been sexual for many, many years and now they’ve become sexual, like all those wasted years, you know, like how do you forgive that? How do you let that go? Is that emotional repair that you have to forgive or is it actually sexual repair?
George (08:05.132)
I think it’s the emotions that are brought up in the sexual cycle. So it’s that you need emotional support and reassurance like you would in an emotional conversation when your partner walks away when you’re trying to talk about the kids, right? If your partner rolls over in bed, it’s going to bring up a similar rejection or message of failure, criticism, and that place needs some reassurance. And it’s the hardest move for partners to do to not say it in a blaming way. Both partners have good reasons for how they’re protecting themselves.
But at the end of the day, to be able to say, hey, you know, we think about Maria, you know, she starts to believe there’s something wrong with her. She has low libido. She’s always disappointing her partner. She’s failing at the pressure that that puts on her over the years is suffocating. It’s hard to want to have sex with that degree of pressure and messages of failure. not interested.
So again, she has to sit in that fear, face that fear instead of going away from it. And really kind of what would help her, right? Being able to turn towards her partner and say, Hey, I, you know, in this place, I kind of don’t feel worthy. feel like I’m letting you down. Right. My heart just needs, needs you to kind of let me know that like it’s I’m not broken. It’s okay. Like nobody would want.
Sex with all this pressure. I want to help you reduce that pressure. Like we’re going to figure this out together. I don’t want you to face these fears alone. Every time you roll over, you’re facing that alone. want to face that with you because I love you. We’re in this together.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:33.902)
Mm-hmm.
So you’re describing something that I think is a real nuanced place is that, you know, so many people are thinking about the cycle problem where she’s saying, you pressure me too much, that’s what’s wrong. But you’re saying there’s a deeper place that she has to examine here and that’s the fearful place of maybe I’m not enough sexually, you know, or I want, you know, I worry maybe that you want sex
George (09:58.872)
Yeah.
George (10:21.58)
A lot of times the need comes across as a criticism. I need you to stop pressuring me. And yeah, I’m sure that could be helpful, but this is, that still sounds like an accusation. This asking for help is an invitation. It’s a plea. It’s a bit. It’s saying in this place where I don’t like myself, where I feel like my body’s betraying me, right? Can you?
tell me it’s going to be okay, we’re going to figure this out. That need for reassurance to get co-regulation, that’s the best way to handle fear and insecurity. It’s not in isolation, it’s with your partner.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:56.575)
And she’s not really a woman with low libido. She’s a woman with lower libido that’s been snagged by the cycle. And we want to say, lower libido doesn’t make you dysfunctional. It is difficult with a partner to manage libido differences. very different. Most everybody has this.
George (10:59.787)
No.
George (11:17.1)
Most of the couples, yeah, most couples we see, it is the negative cycle that kills the libido. It is not the person’s intra-psychic problem.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:29.535)
And it’s not, you’re not dysfunctional if you have lower libido. And you’re also not dysfunctional or a sex addict if you have, you know, higher libido and you want sex a lot. I mean, and I, and I do still believe in sexual addiction, that there are people who use sex compulsively to manage particularly stress, attachment needs, things that they are pressuring the system to manage using sex, which,
really need to be dealt with in a different way. Some of it is you gotta look at how it lands on your partner. Does it really draw you closer, make you more erotic, what happens? But okay, we’re talking really about Maria’s position. Let’s talk about Joey’s position in stage two. Okay, sorry. Say something to me.
George (12:14.029)
Yeah.
George (12:18.19)
Well, hold on one second. want to, the hearing, I’ve heard so many partners like Maria, when they hear from their partner, it’s not your fault that you don’t want to have sex, right? It’s the dynamics we’ve created. It’s the cycle that set us up. know, it’s, nobody’s going to want sex with that pressure.
Right. And in this place where you feel like you’re letting me down and your body’s failing, it’s just doing what it’s supposed to. It’s trying to deal with a threatening situation. Like I’m here to help you. Right. That it, that’s the safety that we need. We need to free up the energy that’s really bound up in all this need to defend. mean, the body’s bracing all the time. It’s waiting for the threat to happen. Like it’s hard to have great sex with that threat response.
We need to relieve that. need to discharge, literally let that out of the body for that person and then have resourcing towards this erotic energy that has just been blocked to this point. So it’s like, I need your help, make me feel safer, helping me let go of a lot of this fear and insecurity. And then let’s come back from break and talk about what does it look like? This is what Laurie and I are really trying to figure out. Once you have that freedom from the
from the oppression of the fears and insecurities, how does that get redirected towards this erotic curiosity, exploration and play, which is the true sign of sexual secure attachment when you could chase something you want.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:49.922)
Yeah. Okay. Let’s come back and talk about that so that then George and I will know what to write. Okay.
George (13:56.694)
Yeah.
All right, Laurie. So what do you think? That’s the shift that that’s that’s that shift. We have more energy. It’s been freed up from all the fears and the blockage. And now how do we redirect it to get Maria this air? Right. Like wasn’t my fault. My partner’s comforting me. I can I can breathe. I can feel there’s less pressure on me. Now what do I do now? How do I tap into this wanting? What do I need erotically to start to kind of engage more?
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:39.297)
I mean, I think this is the most exciting part, but I do want to talk about Joey, because we’ve talked about Maria. I I want you to say a few words here about what stage two is going to be like, what he’s going to have to bring forward, because I think most pursuers don’t think that they’re afraid of much, that they don’t have a lot that they’re protecting.
George (15:02.828)
Yeah, I mean, listen, it’s the same two steps. Joey’s so focused on Maria and changing Maria and feeling frustrated because he’s being rejected. And he starts to think, what’s wrong with me? Do I want sex too much? Am I not a good lover? mean, there’s some wicked fears that develop through years of negative cycles. So that emotional need in the sexual cycle, that reassurance that says, you know…
Am I a good lover? mean, is it my fault you don’t want to have sex? Is there something wrong with me? Am I not performing? Am I attractive? Am I belly getting too big? I mean, all these places we go to of fear that we never really talk about. Right? So that’s the first step. The pursuer has to be willing to listen to the own fear that says, you know, do I deserve the rejection? That’s really more at the heart of
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:33.101)
Am I attractive? Right.
George (15:51.328)
Is there something about me that’s not enough or repulsive or not attractive enough that, you know, it’s why you it’s for whatever reason, this is my life pattern. People don’t seem to want to stay coming closer to me. Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:03.949)
Mm-hmm. I think you’re hitting on sort of a very central fear of sexual pursuers, of am I worthy? Like, either because I’m not attractive enough or I’m not performing well enough, I’m not a good enough lover. There’s a central internal fear of am I worthy? To be wanted, to be desired. Yeah.
George (16:12.951)
Yeah.
George (16:22.722)
Yeah, exactly.
George (16:27.81)
I mean, what’s the opposite of rejection? The need is to be wanted, to be accepted, to be desired. That’s what they’re looking for. But they usually do it in criticism. They don’t come from this place. And just because you have insecurities doesn’t mean you’re also not confident and know you’re lovable. But this is just making room for that insecure place that drives the anger and frustration, right? And asking for help in that place. Like in this place where I start to doubt myself, can you tell me that you do want me?
That it’s the cycles fault that rejections happen. That you do want me, that I’m special to you. that, that getting that and receiving that is the antidote at dispels and discharges a lot of these fears. That then lets Joey now try to go step two, which was what do I need now erotically instead of looking for Maria to solve these problems? I need to come from a place of my own energy.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:20.789)
And now to your second part of, you know, what we’re excited about is how we move in stage two from protection into pleasure, right? That we’re shifting out of these guarded patterns of feeling like we’re not enough or that we’re unworthy. And we’re going to now shift to sharing pleasure and moving into erotic discovery together.
George (17:34.241)
Mm-hmm.
George (17:49.346)
That’s going to be the title of this podcast, Shifting from Protection to Pleasure. That’s really cool.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:54.046)
I like that. I like that. Yeah, I mean, we, we want to like,
help people because it takes so much courage in this stage to look inside, discover, you know, things that maybe we haven’t allowed ourselves to think about. haven’t, the culture didn’t allow us to think about it. We didn’t ever spend any time on it, or we have. And we want to be able to reveal these secret desires, the fears that we have. Like if I tell you something that turns me on, you know, that’s really risky.
George (18:31.939)
Yeah.
George (19:05.132)
Yeah, we’re defining, we’re helping to unpack our book here. But even as you’re saying that, it’s like there’s two looks inside. The first look inside is to look at your fear. How do we help the fear so you feel safer? The second look inside is now you gotta look at what makes you excited. Like you gotta fight for these parts of yourself, right? The defense is gonna keep you not knowing these places. They’re not gonna be able to be accessed.
We need to be intentional, you know. So for Marie, it is about, right, I feel safer now. I could keep focusing on Joey and performance and the pressure, but now that I have more energy, like, who am I sexually? What is it that excites me? This is where the gas pedals are, I think, really helpful. You know, all the glimmers we talk about, like trying to think about moments in your life where you did get excited about sex. Was it the romance? Was it the, you know, was it the massage? Was it the…
You know, the erotic thoughts, like you really got to be intentional to explore yourself. You explored your fears and you had got good results. You got help in that place. Same thing is going to happen here. If you explore your excitement, I mean, it’s there. You, you have a body that’s been made to be excited in this area. So it’s just about really trying to find those spaces and spend more time trying to unpack them.
George (20:36.366)
Mm-hmm.
George (21:12.686)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:13.057)
They might want, I mean, I think when we’re just saying we want people to come into experiences that are mutual, right? Where the withdraw wants sex and has an idea of what is really good for them and is being able to put that out there. I just, I know withdrawers and their resistance. It’s like, look at, maybe they’re hearing that we want them to want sex as often
George (21:46.912)
Yeah, could you possibly be in a place that’s the same as your partner when you’ve had decades of not listening to your own excitement? There’s been no room with all the fears that suffocated your excitement. We’re not saying this is, you just need to tap into something, right? Grow this flicker within you, right? Whatever your capacity is, tend the flame. There is something there that just has been no space for, but this is the critical. If you want to have
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:08.045)
Ten the flame.
George (22:16.716)
what we call secure sexual attachment, both lovers got to be able to tap into some excitement. They don’t have to be equal levels of excitement, but both people got to want something in this exchange that works for them.
George (23:04.279)
Yeah.
George (23:14.616)
Yeah.
George (23:45.368)
that is the gift of breaks and they continue to happen throughout your lifetime, right? If you’re able to listen to your break and ask for help, it will lead to co-regulation and connection. So the only way breaks lead to negative cycles is if we don’t deal with it, we don’t talk about it, we just protect ourselves from it it creates more distance and more disconnection. So yes, throughout this process, I love Lori’s highlighting that you’re gonna have anxiety, you’re gonna get pressure. And if you can talk about that and ask for help.
You’re going to relieve that pressure and that extra energy now should be able to be redirected towards this exploration of your own excitement, right? These glimmers for Maria. It’s like, you know, I do like when we have, you know, a romantic dinner and we have a little bit of downtime and we have some good conversation and we have a glass of wine and then we come home and we listen to some music. I mean, she’s setting a scene. She’s setting an erotic story.
around how her body becomes alive, right? Before you know it, she’s nodding her head because she’s liking this. This isn’t something to just do for Joey. It’s something she also wants and needs for herself. She has to fight for that, right? We have to fight for our needs because we deserve it. We deserve to have sex that has an element of our own excitement in it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:04.907)
And I think that we have to become subject of sexual desire. we have to own sexual desire for ourselves versus necessarily always relying on being cued by our other, you know, our partner. like, we know that women, George, right, mostly have responsive desire. So they do rely on the cues of the other, which is fine. But I think that sometimes I think women are just trained
George (25:54.732)
Yeah, what I encourage Maria to do is to think about her in the emotional cycle. She taps into her desire to want something all the time in conversation. Like when she’s thinking about when Joey comes home, how she’s going to introduce the topic, how she wants to share how her day went, how she wants to talk about what happened with her friend. Like that’s, she wants something and she taps into it and she’s really good. She gets practice with it every day. All we’re asking Maria is to do the same thing with sex.
She’s got to find something that she wants in this conversation. It feels like I can’t do this, it’s too hard. Yeah, that’s what decades of pressure does. But what we’re asking her to do, she actually does all the time.
George (26:42.082)
Yes, all the time. Yeah.
George (26:54.708)
Exactly. And when you’re imagining it, it’s that expectation. It’s that anticipation. It starts to drive and rev up the engine. How do you expect it to work when all it’s focused on is fear and what could go wrong? It’s not Maria’s fault. She don’t want to have sex, but now she’s got some of that energy freed up. She’s got to do this next step of work of saying, what do I want in this scene that I can develop? And she’s good at it. It’s just a little bit shift in settings.
George (28:18.936)
Yeah, and we need a clear target. It’s not that difficult to say. You do better with your fears with your partner. And when you feel safer, it’s easy to explore. This is what great lovers do all over the world, right? We just have a clear map now on how to do it. Repair the fears, feel safer, use that energy to explore. Voila, we have secure sexual attachment.
George (28:51.8)
Keep it hot, y’all.
