Did you know there are different types of touch? In today’s episode, Laurie and George share the work of sex researcher Barry McCarthy on the different types of touch and why they matter. Join us in learning about affectionate, non-demand pleasure and sensual/erotic touch. All kinds of touch are important for emotional and sexual connection. Yet, a quick shift from affectionate to sexual touch can trigger the negative cycle.
Our hosts will help listeners understand the differences and when and where to engage in each style. If you’ve been in a pattern where a hug can lead to sex or to an argument this episode will shine light on what happened and what to do next. Make sure to follow along as we work on rebranding our pod and on our exciting upcoming events!
Transcript
George (02:35.898)
erotic versus sensual touch. What’s the difference?
George (02:49.222)
All right, Laurie, let’s nerd out. Let’s get into the nuances of these different types of touch.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:55.096)
Yeah, but before we do that, let’s just talk about what we’re doing out there in the world. I’ve got a women’s retreat coming up in Salt Lake City on September 6th and 7th. It’s a Friday and Saturday. It’s kind of an evening on Friday. Then we’re gonna all go out to dinner and then it’s all day Saturday. And we’re gonna really talk about sort of how to tend the flame of your eroticism, a safe place to discover what it is and think about it with other
women and share so that you can feel not so alone. And that’s the intention. And so please come to our website for placextherapy.com for that. And we also have our couples retreat coming up, George, also in September, right? That is on September, let’s see, 19th, Friday. And we’re doing that online. So we would love to have you join us there. Please
George (03:41.222)
Nice. Wow.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:54.972)
tell your friends about this. know it’s also you can come you you can be anonymous. It’s a zoom call so you can turn off your screen you can change your name nobody needs to know you’re there you do have to register but right now is like the time to do it.
George (04:13.3)
Yeah, we’re not so good at promoting our material, Laurie, but you know, this couple one day is such an important investment to your relationship. And you know, we’ve done it a bunch of times and it’s pretty consistent to feedback. It’s so valuable. Couples always find something about each other that they haven’t talked about. you know, that’s why we do it. It’s such a powerful way of strengthening your relationship.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:40.182)
Yeah, exactly. We get feedback that says, you know, never had this conversation, wish we had had this conversation years ago. Yeah, it’s very, very exciting. What are you doing?
George (04:48.532)
Yeah.
And I have the SV focus lab coming up September 9th and 11th for therapists. And again, it’s going to be such a creative space to just explore, have fun. It’s really focused on the experiential practice, know, different things people are excited about. This is how we grow each other, right? Enter in a space of not knowing, which we’ve talked about in a lot of podcasts. I mean, it just has great energy and it’s going to be…
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:15.136)
Exciting!
George (05:18.578)
you’ll definitely leave that training picking up some new pieces because that’s, I know I will. They’re my favorite trainings, but I’m not sure what we’re actually talking about, but you get a bunch of people together to be curious and before you know it, things start to become clearer, which is really super cool.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:34.466)
very neat. So that’s going to be with you and Dr. Hopkins and Dr. Ryan Raina. And that’ll be really and that’s in Arkansas, right? Okay. Very nice.
George (05:41.852)
Yeah. That’s in Arkansas and it’s also online, so people want to do it online. We’re also excited about, you know, the likelihood of rebranding, Laurie, of going from this foreplay couples therapy, which has been around for how long?
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:59.64)
about almost 10 years. 10 years next year.
George (06:01.204)
10 years. But a lot of people, even us, we try to look for it. We can’t find it. People always complaining about it. It’s so difficult to word. So we’re thinking about changing it. What are we thinking about, Laurie?
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:16.578)
So we’re thinking about changing to brave love, which kind of conceptually is we think a little bit more about what we’re about. Brave love being the vulnerability sexually and emotionally. we have a logo that we’re experimenting with, which is kind of a flame in a heart put together. Brave love for couples. And it’s a little scary move, right? Because our old listeners might not be able to find this.
We want to definitely tip you to the fact that it’s changing. And also, I think I have girlfriends who won’t listen to me or won’t follow me on social media because they’re like, I don’t want to have, you know, I don’t want to follow something that says foreplay. Like they’re anxious about that. And what was really ironic, and I don’t know if this was a setup or what, but somebody right when we had this conversation sent me a letter, which thank you all for your letters, but sent me a letter that said, you know,
my wife will not listen to you because it sounds like kind of like a porn site or a porn podcast or something. Would there be any chance of you rebranding? And I said, matter of fact, we are just in conversation about that. And I think Brave Love may be more inclusive for people who are wanting something that is about sex and love, which is what we’re about.
George (07:27.957)
Yeah.
George (07:41.495)
Yeah, foreplay was a bit narrow. It’s a part of what a brave love is much more expansive and you know a lot of my friends when I say I check it out, you know, they come up with four plays of golf for some playing golf. There’s so many different things out there that’s confusing and people can’t find it. So this is a mission that we really believe what we’re saying and what a lot of the research is talking about what works in relationship is not out there. We need good information out there and this is just a vehicle to do that.
And with that, we also want to encourage our patrons or people that join us to support us on this mission because this is not something we put a lot of energy and love into and it’s a big sacrifice. like anything else, if something takes your time and your energy, then you don’t have it available for other things. And when people honor that with some kind of support,
Like Laurie said, we love the feedback. We love the messages. That’s how we know how to change things and tweak things or what needs to be clear. And also any financial support makes a big difference. It really allows us to not get resentful if we’ve got to do another bunch of hours because we’re stuck on this and that means I can’t do this other thing. know, it’s just all of us are doing the best we can. So we just want to acknowledge that it does make a big difference in whatever way you can support us.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:02.702)
Yeah, that’s right. And I know that, you know, people sometimes feel like the ads are inoptive. And I know that. And but we also, ironically, we have a lot of expenses. It’s not just two people sitting and talking to each other. We we have editors and we want to thank Joe Davis, who he has tirelessly been with us. He we just went and recorded our five hundredth episode. And Joe Davis has edited every single one of those. Thank you, Joe, so much.
George (09:31.902)
Go Joe.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:32.916)
He is amazingly patient with us because we’re always late, we’re always scrambling, we always have this or that to add and he’s really been kind and generous and has done a great job for us. Thank you so much.
George (09:49.576)
And we would love to get to a point, Laurie, where we didn’t have ads if we had the patrons and everything. That would be an ideal situation. So we’re doing the best we can.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:58.828)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think, you know, people say, well, you know, how much does it actually cost? Like, why are you selling ads? And it’s like, I think last year it was like $70,000 to produce this. We we’ve cut a lot of expenses. And but we’re still kind of close to that just and that’s not anything for us. That’s just pure expenses. So anyway, we we would love your support if it’s meaningful to you in your life, if it helps you.
and changes you and you have the ability, please join us. Just come to Foreplay couples therapy. No Foreplay sex therapy dot com. Right. Yeah. Foreplay sex therapy dot com. I can’t even say it, but I’m going to be able to say brave love for couples pretty soon. And we’re going to just transfer everything over. But if you want to come a patron to help us, we would really appreciate that.
George (10:50.548)
guys.
George (10:58.42)
If you have any connections like the Joe Rogan show or something, you can get us on there. That could help too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:03.406)
Yeah, if you have friends in high places, we’d appreciate it. So, okay, let’s come back. Let’s come back and talk about all this exciting stuff. This is really based again on the research for Barry McCarthy, who is he’s a systems thinker about sex therapy. And he’s a psychologist. He’s actually in my area in Chapel Hill, which we want to have him on the show. And
He has developed a continuum for people to think about touch. And it goes from affectionate touch to sensual touch to erotic touch. he kind of uses examples so that people understand each other. think it’s a way of being able to be more specific about what we need, what we want, what we’re doing. And all of these kinds of touches are important.
George (11:37.64)
Hmm.
George (12:02.964)
And Laurie and I are geeks around what is the motivation of touch? Which system is it coming from? Attachment system? Is it coming from a place of needing emotional support and reassurance? Is it coming from a place of pleasure and erotic energy? you know, we can lump everything into one box, you know, of touch and it’s hard to be clear on why it works or why it doesn’t work. So this is just a way of getting more specific so we have more choice.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:30.222)
Right, exactly. So, affectionate touch, McCarthy says, is warm, comforting, and non-sexual. So it’s hugging, holding hands, cuddling. Our intention with affectionate touch is to communicate care and attachment and emotional closeness. So maybe it’s the end of a long day and I come up to my husband and I’m like, could you just give
me a hug, right? I’m wanting affectionate touch. You know, if he grabs my ass, well, if my husband grabbed my ass, I’d be happy about that. But you know, you know, right for sometimes if you’re looking for affectionate touch and your partner is in a different place, it’s not going to be good. But overall, affectionate touches from the emotional cycle, we’re looking for to reassure our connection to get comfort.
George (13:28.5)
And these systems can move quickly. know for a lot of men it does start off as affectionate. Like if I want to just give my wife a hug and I just kind of rub her back and like that’s what I’m looking for, just that connection. And before you know it, my hands move down a little bit and it shifts systems. So it can happen quickly, but like this affectionate love is so important. know, I think a lot of women…
are afraid of sometimes men’s affectionate love because it can turn sexual quickly for men. So I think this is an important conversation for partners to have.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:05.422)
And I want to just reinforce that that’s okay. That’s the way their body is built. Like if they’re touching, starting out with affection, and they feel, you know, the first bit of arousal. I mean, first of all, they have a choice in what they do with how they change the touch or don’t. But it’s still something that’s good about their bodies. Like how wonderful that their body feels so alive
George (14:11.732)
Yeah.
George (14:32.008)
Yeah.
George (14:44.164)
And it’s also okay if you don’t have that, that you want to stay in the affectionate realm. And there are sometimes I intentionally hold my hands back because I, you know, it’s okay to want to just stay in a place where it’s just about, you know, holding hands and just wanting that kind of connection that says, it’s just the two of us. Like we got each other’s back and let’s just send clear signals of enjoyment around our connection.
and not needed to lead anywhere else. Like it’s okay to want to stay in the affectionate realm and not want to go anywhere.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:54.986)
sensual kind of touch. It’s like I was in a dysregulated state. I was looking for touch to, you know, re-regulate myself. You know, and I mean, fortunately, we can ask for that kind of thing too with each other.
George (16:13.748)
Well, that’s another thing we need to figure out on this list, right? That co-regulation when we’re scared, where we’re needing reassurance, that would fall under the affectionate category. What do you think?
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:23.298)
Mm-hmm, yeah. I was fantasizing about erotic touch. Go ahead, say it again.
George (16:32.318)
So.
We could just scratch that. So you were saying.
George (16:43.772)
I want to comment, what was the last thing you said? We’ll go to break.
George (16:59.794)
And that’s so important, Laurie, to be able to use touch for affection and also for when we need some type of reassurance, right? That you needed his co-regulation. You needed to be reminded that you’re not alone to face this, right? This is not a place for sexual touch. This is a place for safety. That’s what your body’s looking for in that kind of touch. So let’s come back and let’s move along the continuum.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:30.99)
Okay, so sensual touch from different than erotic touch. I think one of the things that McCarthy does really well at underscoring is the need that some sexual partners have for non-demand pleasuring. That’s sensual touch. It’s you know, basically touching all over the body in playful, sort of warm ways, but the intention is shifting from
George (18:23.665)
It’s non-demand what?
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:53.622)
You know, I like that long period of foreplay where my husband touches me and touches me and touches me. And I’m like, yeah, that’s really good. You know, I can understand that sort of how it maybe deepens the sensuality and for her might turn her on sexually, but.
I don’t know, think, I probably think that if you’re headed into sex, it would have to shift for me to sexual stimulation too, but I think a lot of women, it’s satisfying without that, you know, just being touched.
George (19:31.132)
and being touched in a relaxing type of way, an enjoyment type of way. So that would be a massage, would be back scratch, would be ways of just kind of taking in, I mean, what’s cool about emotions and touch is it’s so present moment, right? You can allow your brain to kind of unwind and turn off and just let your body just kind of absorb kind of these good energies.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:54.178)
And I think the idea here that he’s emphasizing is the non-demand, i.e. it’s not pre-sex. So if you receive touch and then you think, okay, now I’m going to have to turn around and maybe do something sexually or otherwise, you know, to kind of return the favor.
You can’t necessarily relax. It’d be like going to get a massage and then suddenly the masseuse says, by the way, part of this deal is you gotta give me a massage. What? That’s not relaxing. There is a reciprocal thing, right, exactly.
George (20:29.054)
Well, you do know you’re paying for the massage. there is a, there is a reciprocal kind of, you know, and I think that’s the same with most partners. mean, if I’m rubbing your back, I’m also hoping you’re going to do something for me. mean, there’s something about, you know, some I’m a little confused with this non-demand pleasure because, you it’s okay, I think to give and want to receive at the same time, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:55.138)
Well, yes, and I think somewhat.
some of the receipt is actually in your fingers touching. know, like, I actually like to rub my husband’s head. You know, it’s like I like the way it feels to my fingers. I’m not necessarily doing it to arouse him or relax. I mean, I want him to relax. I know it puts him to sleep. So when he’s stressed, this really works and it’s a good way to do it. So I think that’s his point is that it’s non-demand.
George (21:05.319)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:30.04)
you’re actually giving versus looking for receiving and your partner feels that.
George (21:37.396)
I love that touch two different ways, like touch the way your partner, you think your partner likes versus touch the way you like giving to your partner. Those are two very different forms of touch and they’re both, but I still, both of them would fall under the category. Like what is the touch when you touch wanting me touch to be given back to you, that’s still sensual.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:02.346)
I can certainly see that these two things can be paired, right? Like if somebody says, it, I am in my head, I’m in my day, I can’t let go, could you rub my back? And then let me see if I can relax, and if I can, then we’ll have sex, right? That might work. And I have clients who I’ve said to them, particularly in the development of physical safety, I’ve asked them to only sit
stay in the sensual touch realm to not move into sexual touch because, you know, they’re both basically, you know, perhaps maybe it’s like a trauma issue and they just need to know that they can be safe and there’s nothing demanded of them. So, I don’t know. I think that a lot of people…
What I would suggest to men is that sensual touch given freely over time sprinkled in not saying that you’re going to stop sex or not have sex, but not as a precursor to sex actually sets a climate where your partner’s body is just more sensually oriented.
George (23:21.716)
I guess I would just have sensual broken down. think non-demand is a part of it, but there’s also okay to have sensual touch that is hoping to get something back. Like there’s part of, think, most touch before it leads to erotic, right? It’s starting to, you know, if I’m rubbing my wife’s back, there’s something about that that I’m…
liking too, right? And given that and she’s liking it and I’m hoping she’s gonna rub me back. And it’s like there is kind of caregiving going both ways that feels really connecting.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:57.006)
Now I’m with you, George. I think that’s really
something that needs to be delineated. It needs to be separated. So it’s almost like we’re talking about four things, non-demand pleasuring, sensual touch that leads to erotic connection. And then erotic touch is his third category, which is sort of explicitly sexual, lustful. is where we’re gonna take personal sexual risks. We’re gonna be creative, we’re gonna be mysterious.
George (24:06.098)
Right.
George (24:11.614)
Okay.
George (24:21.287)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:32.932)
This is our last podcast we talked about how unpredictability leads to desire. Unpredictability about maybe the sexual moment, a new sexual act or the caveman sex or the cavewoman sex or the romantic role play or something. That that brings, erotic touches what brings vitality into the relationship from the sexual cycle.
George (25:06.769)
I mean, I like exploring what our body’s looking for in these different types of touches. if like affection is around safety and feeling connected and sensual is around pleasure and feeling relaxed and then erotic is tapping into this exploration and this excitement and this, you know, lust and this powerful energy. Like it makes sense to, I like how he’s breaking it down. haven’t heard this before.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:32.47)
Yeah, and he does say that sensual touch is complementary. It’s not the opposite of erotic touch. They go together. So I think he does show how one could lead to the other. But I do think his emphasis on how non-demand pleasuring is important for some people to not have to reciprocate anything is different than the sensual touch that leads to erotic touch.
George (26:02.622)
So what happens with the double-edged orgasm and the afterglow? What kind of touch is that?
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:08.896)
Yeah, double orgasm afterglow. I’m, I am just laying on the bed George like spent. No cuddly necessary just like totally spent. you kidding?
George (26:11.346)
Now you just cuddle in there and kind of…
George (26:22.921)
That two minutes with Derek just wiped you out.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:26.222)
It does, it wipes me out. Yeah, I know, shocking, right? I’m not really much of a cuddler afterwards. I don’t, I don’t know, I mean, it’s fine, but it’s more just like, whew.
I’m trying to come back into my own body, I guess. But OK, so what would you say is after sex? Because I know you’re a cuddler, right?
George (26:48.748)
I am a big, I’m an afterglow. It’s one of my favorite parts that just feel like full with oxytocin and just like, just the world just turns off and it’s just like super relaxed, right? And so to me that it kind of goes back towards more of that affectionate stuff, right? And I’m not looking for sex again after that. I’m not doing it as an erotic energy. More is this just feeling connected energy.
Satisfied.
George (27:24.506)
Yeah. Yep.
George (27:43.208)
Yeah, not much I talk afterwards either, but to just like not need words to just just be present in kind of the connection. And one of the few times I think don’t need words. I’ll need something else. It’s just.
There’s a piece to that, but I’m kind of looking at a circle. might start off with some affection and then it turns somewhat sensual and then it turns erotic or you have sex, but then it ends back. You know, the loop closes when it comes back to affection and you have to go.
George (28:17.992)
I mean, he falls asleep holding each other’s hand. You know, that’s not a bad way to go to bed.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:24.942)
Nice, nice, full circle for the Fowlers. Affection, sensual, erotic continuum all in one night. And then it begins again.
George (28:30.524)
circle.
George (28:35.693)
one night and started over again in the morning.
George (28:44.052)
and it begins again.
Laurie Watson, PhD (28:45.432)
But I love that one of the things I think you say here is that you feel so satisfied. And I think that that is very different than a sexual pursuer who can’t experience and take inside satisfaction, right? Because their anxiety says, well, that was good, but what about tomorrow night? And they don’t really get the benefit of that deep sense of,
George (29:24.146)
Yeah, there’s, think gratitude is the natural byproduct of successful co-regulation. When you join together and you become part of something bigger, there’s just appreciation for that. I think the self becomes less important in those moments in kind of merger. So having that as a target, like do you feel at the end of sex, like, thank you, I’m lucky. This is really beautiful.
Like that’s kind of, I think, where love naturally ends before it starts over again.
Laurie Watson, PhD (30:03.864)
beautiful. And I’m sorry, but my mind is just thinking of other things that I was thinking. I’m grateful. It’s like I’m very religious when I’m sexual. God, God. Yes, I’m grateful. Sometimes different places. absolutely. Okay. Well, thanks for listening, y’all.
George (30:18.8)
It’s not bad. It’s not bad bringing God into this either. mean, God is love. God’s shown up here, right?
George (30:31.41)
Be thankful.
