In today’s episode, we explore taking sex from a chore to a desired event. It’s common for one partner to see sex as a way to please the other but forget about themselves. While individuals do have different levels of sexual desire, physical intimacy is still a need.
Laurie and George invite sexual withdrawers to consider themselves, and their needs and wants in the sexual relationship rather than just making their partner happy. Through awareness, mindset shift and fantasy withdrawers will learn how to uncover and share their sexual needs to create more desire and want in your sexual relationship.
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:07.78)
Okay, today we’re going to talk about switching our minds when sex is a to-do to making it about fulfilling a fantasy, George.
George (00:20.588)
This is big stuff, Lori. This is big stuff.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:23.55)
Okay, let’s do it.
George (00:26.902)
All right, that mindset, what is the motivation for why we do what we do is critically important. And what we’re really starting to become clear about, Laurie and I, is we’re breaking down tapes and watching sessions as these two different ways people start engagements.
right in the emotional cycle or the sexual cycle. Right, if you start from a position of working, right, like I want to make my partner happy. I want to do the right thing. I want to serve obligation. Like that’s a beautiful thing. We all need to do that in relationships for it to be successful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:59.236)
Sometimes we prioritize the other and we say, is what my partner needs. I’m going to give them what they need. I think love is a fine starting place for sex. You know, it doesn’t have to always be desire. And it isn’t always gendered. mean, right now I’m working with a couple and the guy is massive sexual withdraw. He also has no testosterone and his body is about equivalent to a
postmenopausal woman’s hormonal body and you know, just never really wants to do it. it’s like, but he has erections, he can get an erection fine. And it’s like, you know, you don’t have to want to do it. You can, he does love her a lot. You can do it because you love her. You know, you can make love to her.
George (01:47.624)
And if that is your mindset, it’s predictable how the body’s going to respond to that. Right? You could have, you know, enjoy being with your partner, maybe have an orgasm. But typically at the end, it’s like when you finished work, you’re glad you finished work, you get some relief, the work is done, but you really don’t get that high, that dopamine hit, like when your body really wants something and it’s excited for something, you know? So that’s…
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:53.898)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:06.656)
Ha
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:16.992)
I don’t know. mean, I think that the body has a governance of its own. I think we do get the dopamine. I think that’s why getting people to do it any old way they get there is reinforcing to their bond and to hopefully they want to do it again. But I mean, we listen to this all day long, right? People who say, yep, I had an orgasm. It was good.
but it doesn’t necessarily motivate me. I don’t know that that’s in the body. I think that’s something else inside.
George (02:49.334)
We’re both big fans of orgasm. So listen, if, if, if you do it out obligation, you have an orgasm, you’re ahead of the game. So, you know, this is, we’re just trying to develop some concepts, you know, that if your motivation tends to be, and let’s go to the emotional cycle, you see this with a lot of partners. It’s like, if their partner wants to talk about something vulnerable, they’ll be responsive, you know, they’ll have that conversation. But a lot of times they have the conversations like, does my partner want? And I want to give them what they want. I want to do a good
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:52.466)
Ha ha ha.
George (03:19.268)
job. They don’t have the drive in that they want something out of for themselves. It’s coming from more of a place of service. It’s focusing on the other and what the other wants instead of the self and what the self wants. That’s what we’re calling more this motivation, this work motivation. Like I’m doing it more for you than for me.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:30.422)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:40.382)
And do you think that for a partner
to be a good emotional partner, that they have to want to have emotional sharing for themselves, like that they’re like.
George (03:57.006)
Absolutely.
It doesn’t have to be 50-50, right? But there has to be some reciprocity in the emotional exchange. You’re gonna have different discrepancies. So that’s pretty typical emotionally or sexually. One person wants it more and pushes and the other wants it less and that’s fine. Couples find their way. But we all are gonna at times need responding to us, right? We’re gonna need our partners care given in places of struggle. And that’s switching into the other mindset. The other mindset is
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:23.531)
Mm-hmm.
George (04:28.592)
being driven by the imagination, the fantasy, the desire, the wanting. I actually want something from you. I want the engagement, either emotionally, I just want to share my feelings. want to, like my brain is looking for something. Like those are those longings, those needs that are driving the motivation or sexually. I want to have something fun in this encounter. I’m looking to get something out of it. When you enter the space looking for something, it’s much more likely that when you get it, your body
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:36.416)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:43.392)
Mm-hmm.
George (04:58.572)
is going to have that pleasure response, that reward system because you’re getting the thing that you’re looking for. And even if you don’t get it, that it wants to get something, it propels the brain to keep focusing on it. And it’s what creates a lot of energy.
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:16.852)
huh. And I mean, certainly as an emotional pursuer, right? I would want my partner to want to share with me something that’s vulnerable. You know, I want him to see me as a resource, to see me as somebody special that he would bring things to, to see me as somebody who would hold his secrets and he would tell things to. yeah.
I mean, I would definitely want that. So, but you said there’s a discrepancy. So he may not have to do that all day long. And would we say the same sort of thing for a sexual withdraw or maybe a female who is most of the time responsive, but every once in a while the partner says, you know, when you want it, I want you to come get me, you know, sometimes.
George (06:15.854)
You know, that’s the word. I don’t think it’s the right word, but there is something that needs to be self-centered or selfish or self-focused on what you want in the exchange, which just makes your brain want it a little bit more. So if you look at Joey and Maria, right, in an emotional conversation, if Maria is thinking about, can’t wait to talk to Joey about this, you I want to, like, you’re putting in so much reps even before you bring it
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:32.521)
Mm-hmm.
George (06:49.347)
I mean, there’s a lot of energy that’s going into the Watten success in this area. Joey’s not putting that same energy. I’m not even really thinking about it. And if it comes, just want to get it right. I just want to tell you what you want to hear. You know, I don’t have the same reps driving my brain to want something at his account. I just want it to not go bad a lot of the times, you know, so you could see.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:54.134)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:10.508)
This time we’re talking about talking, not sex,
George (07:13.292)
Yeah, we’re talking about this. I mean, both systems it’s, it’s, it’s, we’re just trying to open up space to be curious. How do you start? Do you start wanting something or do you start off more of a work? You want to do the right thing? And, just to see those are very different motivations that usually lead to different outcomes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:31.243)
Mm-hmm.
And I tend to think that, like in my work in the beginning, I’ve told you all, I used to work just with women, or primarily work on the sexual withdraw piece. And I would ask women, how often do you think about sex in a positive way? in a responsive way, not because your partner wants it, but how often do you? And if I could get the answer, and I would say for a month.
If I would get the answer twice, I would be very happy as a therapist because I knew that if she had some responsiveness and she was responding to her partner’s initiation and had a good time, but if I could get those two times, we could capitalize on them and bring her awareness to them. Like, you know, yeah, I heard a song. I thought about the first time I had sex, you know, and I had a sexy feeling. It’s like,
great, can we grab that moment, that little glimmer, you bring it home and tell your husband about it or ask for sex from your husband. Just twice a month, mean, once a month, if she would have the courage to initiate because she had a little spark inside her, that’d be awesome. And I think the same thing goes for emotional withdrawers. They probably, if they can…
become aware of the times that they do need, that yeah, it would be good to review this with somebody or think about it or I have an insecurity. Just that awareness and then find the impetus to share with their partner. dare that, you know, once a month. That’d probably be enough. think, don’t you think with most men if they had a female responsive partner but she initiated
George (09:12.59)
Exactly. Yep, these. That’s all it takes. Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:28.26)
once a month because she wanted it, that’d be like banner day.
George (09:33.518)
That’s there are two sides of the same coin, right? This need to do it for your partner. Be more responsive versus driving. You want something for yourself. They’re both super important. And when you have range, you can do both of them. The couple has higher levels of engagement. not saying one’s right or one’s wrong, you know, but it is it is important for couples to say if I’m predominantly just in one side of the coin, that’s probably going to set us up for some of these kind of negative cycles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:37.152)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:45.548)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:50.145)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:00.715)
Mm-hmm.
George (10:03.532)
that we talk a lot about. And I love that you’re saying it doesn’t take much to change this. know, one or two exceptions just starts to give you more range, you know, and you deserve that. So a lot of men who are emotional withdrawers that they’ve always going to be probably more receptive and want to do the right thing and listen to their partner. But every once in a while, they got to learn how to stand up for something that’s not working so well for them emotionally so they could have a better outcome.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:04.896)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:09.633)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:13.461)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:27.85)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
George (10:30.262)
If I constantly, the moment before I walk away, because I don’t want things to get worse, but I’m feeling like I’m failing. Every time I walk away, if that feeling never gets helped or addressed and I never find words for it, then I’m never having success. Right. And I got to learn some of the time to actually stop and say, Hey, wait a second. You know, when you make that comment and I know you got good reasons, you’re angry, you’re trying to address the problem, but it sends me to a bad place where I feel pretty lonely and I feel pretty discouraged and I feel pretty helpless. And, know,
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:43.02)
All
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:55.105)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:59.51)
Mm-hmm.
George (11:00.176)
I never talk about that feeling. you know, now I’m talking about it because getting my partner to come closer and, and, and I want it for me. That’s really the key to what we’re trying to talk about here. It’s gotta come from a place that I want something. It can’t always just be, you’re doing it for your partner.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:15.477)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:19.264)
Yeah. And I really like that you chose an example of an emotional withdraw wanting change in the relationship emotionally. Like that’s a really brave ask versus maybe sharing something a little less. know, like I had an encounter with my kid and I didn’t know what to say and what would you have said and can we talk about this so that I can, you know, I have some need. What?
George (11:46.958)
Those are good too. Those are good too. Those are good too.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:49.51)
No.
George (11:53.134)
But either big deep conversation or a lighter one, both are starting at the same starting point, which is a want. I want something in this conversation with you, or I want something sexually with you. And because I want something, my brain is mobilized and it’s thinking about it, it’s anticipating. That’s where the fantasy part comes on. Like we start to kind of head down that road. And if you’re not starting from that starting point,
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:03.03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:15.552)
Mm-hmm.
George (12:19.042)
You know, you’re in neutral, then it’s starting only when your partner comes. And a lot of times your body’s like, I, what am I supposed to do here? So I can, you know, do, do the right thing or, you know, perform and that it’s, it doesn’t have the same at the end. usually doesn’t, that’s what just trying to normalize. doesn’t have the same physiological, usually outcome. If you’re the motivation, if there is a motivation versus not a motivation.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:30.912)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:44.714)
Well, OK, I want to clarify that as I think about it inside a woman’s body. Certainly there’s something very delicious about anticipation sexually, right? Because you kind of, as you fantasize about it or you mentally prepare, you have arousal. So when you enter the sexual experience, you’re already aroused.
George (13:09.261)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:14.497)
on some level if your mind is engaged, you’re entering at that. Let’s come back. I got a noodle on this. Think about it and say some more about it.
George (13:22.612)
Yeah. Let’s go.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:26.59)
Okay, so we’re talking about, know, first of all, a question of do we have the same pop at the end if we enter from a neutral place? I would say yes, but there’s something really rewarding about entering an experience with want and desire. And that does kind of make the
entry place more exciting and okay.
George (13:57.39)
Well, can I add something for you to noodle on as you’re doing this? Just because how many, we’re talking about women in this example, how many women after being receptive and having an orgasm and feel great afterwards and then say, should be doing more of this, this is amazing, and then don’t go back to doing more of it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:12.148)
Yeah, yeah. Right.
George (14:15.702)
Right? So when you have that fantasy driving it, you wind up doing more of it. That’s why people sexually pursue. They want it. It’s the want that drives the initiation. So that’s what I mean. They might physiologically feel great afterwards, but it doesn’t translate into like they face. should. They’re saying, this is great. I really love this. Like I want this too. I want more of this. And then it disappears again.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:36.224)
I know. And it falls flat and that is so frustrating. I mean, as a partner, that’s so frustrating. I wonder what happens inside the woman, because we were talking about females, like why it doesn’t translate. I think what happens, George, is the desire is there, but it gets obscured by the to-dos, the have-tos, the stress, the tiredness. It’s like she gets buried.
You know, so that sexy girl underneath somehow or another gets buried and can’t sort of feel free to come out because of all the press of her life. I think it’s there. think she has to like make sense. She has to make room for that part of herself and say that it is important.
Pleasure is important. Stopping is important. Stopping production is okay. know, taking time in the evening, go take a bath, you know, get yourself into it, give yourself some room for that. I think women are so harsh and judge themselves so much on what they get done, how they take care of their families, how they finish work. I mean, we got a lot of responsibility. And I just think because of the fragileness of our bodies, not having that
know, ton of testosterone inside. All those other concerns can really take precedence.
George (16:12.504)
Yeah. And that’s what we’re trying to highlight here. If you have testosterone driving it, it’s causing your brain to think about it multiple times during the day. You’re playing out fantasies in your head. How should you bring this up? How should you initiate? What’s the amount of reps that your brain gets focusing on this topic is nowhere near compared to the other partner who’s not really thinking about it. Who’s just going to respond when it actually comes up in the moment.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:36.022)
Yeah.
George (16:39.086)
I mean, if you just did the math, you know, one brain is thinking about sex a hundred times during the day and the other one’s thinking about it one or two times a day. So that’s what I’m saying. They’re not starting points, not the same, which is, which is also why the out end point is often very different.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:39.115)
Yeah.
George (16:54.53)
Like even like you said, a lot of pursuers, even they’re finished with the orgasm, their brains are already saying, when’s it going to happen next? You know, you know, all right, this was great, but what about is it going to be three days? It’s going to be five days. Like it just goes right back into pursuing into chasing. And it’s that chasing energy that that gives it a lot more energy than when we’re not chasing it all. So I guess that’s what I’d like to spend a little bit of time here. Like how do we help people notice?
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:05.782)
you
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:14.998)
Mm-hmm.
George (17:20.962)
kind of where they’re starting from. And if they want to shift it a little bit, if you want to introduce a little bit more chasing energy, like that motivational energy, we guarantee that will bring more life force into your sexuality, right? How do we help people do that?
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:37.58)
Spent a lifetime on that one. Yeah, I think it’s the noticing. It’s calling attention to, maybe not in the moment. I think it’s hard to shift in the moment. I think it’s the pattern that we need to shift. know, humans shift patterns more easily than they shift one-off kind of events. So if you’re like, yeah, I’m generally always responsive.
George (17:44.75)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:05.932)
That’s fine with me. I have an orgasm. My partner’s fine with initiating. No big deal. First of all, I would ask your partner, you know, are you okay with always initiating? And then like, you know, just maybe some feedback, you know, like it would be great if you came onto me every once in while or flirted with me when you wanted it or came into the moment kind of excited. And so…
George (18:27.424)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:34.25)
And then ask yourself inside, like, OK, yeah, my partner would like that. And what would I like? Do you remember any moments when you really did want it and what your body felt? mean, to me, this is accessing memory as a way to turn on. Remember the time on the big rock.
or remember the time in the forest or when you were dating or remember the time on the trampoline or remember the time, you know, the first time like, and your body was all ago. mean, and what happened in the moment? mean, I think when we, when we remember, first of all, we turn our body on and those things are kind of locked in. Those memories are assessable.
to use to turn our body on. And if you had a better experience, like even in the moment being turned on, I mean, why not access the memory or the fantasy? I mean, most people I know have their secret garden. Even women who are withdrawers, they have a secret garden that they think about to turn on. And it’s like,
George (19:57.986)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:59.156)
What about turning on first, just fantasizing, thinking about that, whatever it is that turns you on, and then risking to approach a partner when you’re turned on?
George (20:12.59)
You’re making explicit a mindset shift, right? If you can get somebody to be more intentional, you know, if it’s a memory, if it’s catching a glimmer, if it’s reading a book, like they’re being proactive to say, I’m going to invest some of my energy to think about this before it happens. Right? It’s that’s that’s building that, that chase part of us. Like I read a book around sex. like, Oh, I don’t like that. I don’t like that. I don’t like that. Oh, that’s interesting. Like now your brain is thinking about it in times where
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:15.989)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:29.888)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:39.585)
Yeah.
George (20:42.544)
thinking about it was just being receptive. But catching glimmers is a huge one, right? Just trying to find moments during the day where actually you can’t not be erotic. We all are sexual beings. It’s in all of us. It’s just listening to it when it comes out and trying to grab them.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:48.117)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:00.554)
Right. Right. And I mean, I think the difficulty with the sexual withdraw is that there’s not that motivation. And this is, think, why you say this all the time is, wouldn’t it be great? Or could we have the sexual withdraw find a way to want it for themselves? So we’re not saying you have to want sex all the time. We’re saying, is it better for you?
George (21:19.928)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:29.564)
Is the sexual experience better for you when you enter it with wanting? It’s certainly fine to enter it. We’re not criticizing entering it by responding or giving or loving. But for you alone, are there times that wanting it is better? And can you give yourself that? You know your partner wants to feel desired by you, that’s great. But what about you?
George (21:40.557)
Mm-hmm.
George (21:55.884)
You think about the best sex you’ve had, it’s where two people both wanted it. It don’t have to be one wants it, you both could want it and not always gonna be the case. We have different timings and rhythms, but trying to yes, that wanting it part of it. And I also wanna say if you’re the pursuer to have a little bit empathy, your brain has a lot more practice thinking about sex than your partner, right? Which makes sex more.
accessible to you, right? It’s an easier motivational force to tap into because you have a lot more practice in that area. And if you didn’t, you would probably be more like your partner. And this would be a little bit harder for clients some of the time. And just to recognize that, I just think it helps both partners understand each other better and just instead of just hoping the other partner was them.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:23.083)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:28.16)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:42.763)
Yeah.
So true, right? Because we don’t want the pursuers to say, hey, listen to this one. Listen to this episode. Just one more. There we go. There we go. Now, it’s the awareness of your own sexual self, your body. And I always say, particularly as women, because we don’t have as much testosterone, we have to have an erotic.
George (22:49.228)
Yeah, we’ve we straightened you out with your words just want it more but some true to that.
George (22:58.04)
Bye, take care.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:14.582)
We have to have something inside that we want it, that we know what we like, that we can say what we like, that we have courage about revealing the erotic self, the fantasies inside. And not saying you have to reveal every fantasy or your secret garden, but something that you want would be great. Or just doing it.
George (23:42.926)
Every sexual pursuer we work with.
has developed this. They’ve thought, think about sex and something they want in sex, right? And that makes a big difference in how they experience sex. So that’s all we’re trying to say here. If you come from a position, a motivation that isn’t that, you know, and it’s more responsive, which is great. And you’re always going to keep doing that. We don’t want that change. But if you could find some exceptions to that, if you could try to tap into something that you want it for yourself, don’t believe us, listen to your own body and what it feels
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:49.28)
Mm-hmm.
George (24:16.962)
like when the starting point is something you want instead of just what your partner wants.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:22.556)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Nate, where are we on our time? One minute. Okay. So how do you change awareness? Think about those two times a month that you really do think about sex. If you’re a sexual, if you’re an emotional withdraw, maybe think about the times that you would like to share something that you do have a little need.
George (24:30.178)
Yeah, we’re pretty much done.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:51.604)
or you want something a little different in your relationship, risk acting on that.
George (24:57.71)
And for you emotional withdrawals out there, the same goes for you. know, try to find something you’d want out of it in the conversation. It’s not just something to do for your partner. We all have our own needs too. It’s a safer, better place when we can get them met. This goes both ways.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:15.709)
Okay, thanks for listening.
George (25:17.592)
Keep it up, y’all.
