Time to head back to school listeners! In this ‘School of Love’ episode we are defining attachment styles and how they show up in the bedroom. We focus on secure, anxious and avoidant attachment styles and why partners might fall into patterns based on their sexual attachment.
Join hosts George and Laurie in this conversation on how your sexual attachment style affects your love life and what you can do about it. An anxiously attached sexual pursuer might crave connection to soothe themselves, an avoidantly attached partner might shut off emotions during sex and see it as a stress reliever. Why is this important? If you can see how and why you are showing up the way you are in your sexual relationship you can do something about it! Remember it’s not just about you, this is an intimate connection and we want to aim to make this relationship as secure as possible. We hope you take lots of notes in class today!
Check out this episode’s sponsor:
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s favorite personal lubricant!
Transcript
George (00:04.494)
Alright, I’ll bring this in. You ready?
George (00:10.026)
Attachment Styles, this time in the bedroom. Back to the School of Love, Lori, let’s do it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:17.793)
Okay, let’s talk about attachment styles and what that looks like in the bedroom for sex.
George (00:25.706)
Yeah, so some context. mean, there’s so much research on the attachment styles, anxious, avoiding, secure, disorganized in the emotional cycle. You’ve all heard us talk about it. It’s some good stuff out there. A lot of tests, you can figure out what you’re doing, but it’s not so clear the research on.
applying that to the bedroom, really looking at that sexual attachment system and how it plays out with attachment styles. So we’re going to go to our research guru, Dr. Lori Watson. Hopefully she can give us some clarity in this area.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:55.889)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:02.077)
This is so exciting. I’m really understanding this differently than I have before. I think I’ve seen the outcome, but I haven’t seen why. so Attachment Styles is helping me figure out kind of why we’re a pursuer or why we’re a withdraw in the bedroom. You know, we know kind of how to fix the pursue withdrawal and we’re just going to look, we’re going to pull the sheets down, George, and we’re going to look underneath and see kind of show and tell.
George (01:19.522)
Yes.
George (01:26.766)
Show and tell. All right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:31.401)
why we do what we do do. And we have talked on several episodes about secure attachment, right? So we’re going to talk about secure attachment, avoidant attachment, and anxiously attached people. And we know securely attached people, they are comfortable with being emotionally connected and they like sex and they don’t have a lot of trouble being sexual. They enjoy it. They enjoy the…
George (01:39.032)
Yeah.
George (01:45.038)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:00.685)
love making, which is the intimate, you know, soul part, emotional part of sex. And they love the physical down and dirty part too, right? They want genital pleasure, which is kind of different if you think about it than maybe somebody who says, well, you know, I like to cuddle. I like to be close. Securely attached people also want orgasms and they want to be touched and they want to touch their partner’s genitals. And all of that is exciting to them and they’re comfortable with it.
George (02:30.191)
They have an open emotional attachment system open sexual attachment system and caregiving responsiveness all the stuff We could look for is all immersed in this moment together some good stuff Lori So we are clear on that and I think we are you know understanding what it looks like when it’s
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:42.323)
good stuff.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:50.525)
Okay, okay, good. let’s, now it’s a little confusing. So now we think about anxious attachment.
George (02:54.924)
Now to confuse him,
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:02.865)
Okay, so if you’re anxiously attached, you’re probably going to be wanting closeness, wanting proximity, wanting reassurance. And so it would make sense, and this is true, that many anxiously attached people want to have sex. But sometimes they want to have sex because they want to soothe their own insecurity. So they want to…
George (03:30.167)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:34.233)
merge and be sexual. They’re looking for emotional closeness. They may or may not be looking for genital pleasure, but they want sex. And sometimes that can kind of get a little bit frantic. So, you know, I got to have sex because that proves to me that I’m desirable to you, that you’re going to stay with me, that you want me.
for all of those reasons. And maybe they focus on their partner’s response a little bit more. Did they enjoy it? Are we doing okay? And this is why sometimes partners will say with an anxiously attached partner, sexually a pursuer, but who is maybe a little more pushing in it. When my partner focuses on my response and says, did you like it? Was it good for you? I just like,
suddenly it kind of wrecks the moment because their pursuit tells me what that maybe I didn’t respond well enough. Maybe I didn’t. My response wasn’t big enough for them to be reassured. And it kind of dampens the moment rather than this joyful experience afterwards. It’s like, okay, even after we had great sex, I have to still keep reassuring them.
George (04:59.502)
So to me, that would be the easier one. If it was just lined up so perfectly, right? Emotionally, if you were anxious, you would just push. And same thing happens in the sexual side. You get anxious and you push. And we certainly do see that, right? When people are afraid and they might lose their partner as an infidelity, all of a sudden it ushers in this sexual energy that wants to kind of not lose. And it’s more anxiety-based. So again, that makes sense from that pursuit position. But we also want to talk about so many of these
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:23.484)
right.
George (05:29.456)
emotional pursuers who actually become sexual with Taura. So how do you drive that with the anxious attachment?
Laurie Watson, PhD (05:36.553)
Okay, so in anxious attachment, it makes sense that people would lean towards sex, but it doesn’t quite make as much sense that they would lean away from sex and maybe be sexual withdrawers, which is very common. And we’re talking about the crisscross pattern of sexual pursuing, but emotional, no, no, no. Emotional pursuing, sexual withdrawing.
George (05:49.304)
which is very common, that does happen. Yeah.
George (06:02.892)
Emotional pursuant. Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:05.755)
and frequently the reverse of that of emotional withdrawing and sexual pursuers. So, okay, so when you’re leaning away from sex, but you actually have an anxious attachment, there’s a couple of reasons for it. One, maybe I don’t feel safe because my emotional needs are not met, or the sex itself is not that great, or I have pain or something like that. So maybe they avoid sex because
George (06:23.021)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:35.218)
of not feeling connected already. Or they may be, okay.
George (06:40.078)
So let’s stay with that for a second. Cause again, we were trying to make sense of that, even though the disconnection causes anxiety that wants to cling or move towards something overrides that in the bedroom might be the pain. might be feeling the pain of the emotional disconnection that all of sudden starts to suppress kind of the sexual energy and it’s easier to, know, cause, but they are still avoiding in that moment. So we’re just trying to kind of understand that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:50.547)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:54.074)
Mm-hmm.
George (07:09.976)
how they go from, how can they suppress the anxiety to then try to avoid it? Does that make sense?
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:18.244)
No, say that again.
George (07:19.918)
You’re saying because of the pain, either physical or emotional, that pain is causing them to try to avoid putting themselves in that situation.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:22.355)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:32.009)
Yeah, and not just physical pain, but maybe sex that isn’t so great. And it makes sense to me if they’re anxiously attached. Maybe they’ve been having sex to please their partner, but not necessarily for themselves. And if you’re not having sex for yourself, you’re not necessarily shaping the sexual experience, changing it.
George (07:36.941)
Yeah.
George (07:48.034)
That definitely,
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:02.033)
so that it becomes very pleasurable for yourself. You’re more worried about your partner’s experience than your own experience. So then over time, maybe you don’t feel emotionally connected and the sex is not that great for you. Excuse me, Joe, you’re have to cut that out. The sex is not that great for you. So it isn’t that compelling.
George (08:04.834)
Mm-hmm.
George (08:10.22)
Yep.
George (08:19.714)
Yeah, I, I go.
George (08:28.076)
Yes. And I think not compelling sex, placating sex, all these different forms that train the body not to enjoy sex is going to eventually make someone not want to have sex. And we’re big proponents of not having bad sex. you know, I’m just trying to understand in that moment though, they’re actually, even though they have an anxious emotional attachment style, they’re avoiding sex eventually they’re going to get there because the sex isn’t good that they’re having. they’re pulling away. They’re not
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:32.713)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:42.12)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:54.505)
Right.
George (08:57.324)
pushing for sex, they’re actually pulling away from it. They’re moving away.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:59.997)
Right, they’re moving away. And there’s a third part to anxious attachment because our attachment style is kind of on a continuum, right? Secure attachment is in the middle, anxious and avoidant are on the ends. And we can, even with an anxious attachment, function sexually more securely. So, you know, maybe it’s like…
George (09:15.502)
Mm.
George (09:24.6)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:28.103)
We do enjoy sex because it does deepen love and we’re not testing our partner to see if they desire us and want us, but we want sex because yeah, it does make me feel better. But also, if my partner says no, I don’t get totally flipped out. It’s like, okay, I can wait till there’s a time that’s mutual. And also I think…
we can respond when we’re more secure, even though we’re anxiously attached, kind of with some playfulness, not panicked when our partner says no. So we can lean towards sex, lean away from sex, or stay in the middle and be more secure.
George (10:02.648)
Yeah.
George (10:07.8)
Become sexual, secure, yep.
George (10:14.218)
is nice and that’s what we’re hoping people listen and are trying to move towards security. Why not? Just because you’re anxious attachment doesn’t mean you’re destined for that in life. So I guess what I hear you say just to sum that up is that
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:25.15)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:29.075)
Okay.
George (10:31.156)
I’m anxiously attached, let’s say, and it could express itself three different ways in the bedroom. I could be consistent with what I do in the emotional cycle where I can push and, you know, try to influence the outcome and be critical if it changes and happen, and because my energy is mobilizing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:33.555)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:37.096)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:47.12)
Mm-hmm. Right.
George (10:49.868)
Two is because maybe I want to make my partner happy and I want to, I push myself to have sex. don’t want to have over time. And then the sex isn’t so great that eventually I get all this pressure on me. And, know, I start to worry about my libido, whatever else I start to actually pull away sexually. So that’s going to be that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:58.003)
Mm-hmm.
George (11:13.07)
call that the crisscross right sexually looking at the yeah
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:14.215)
That’s leaning away. That’s a withdrawal sexually, even though you’re right emotionally, you are still anxiously attached or you’re usually an emotional pursuer, but sexually you’re a sexual withdraw.
George (11:28.738)
which is probably the most common, right? You’re gonna get that sexual, that emotional pursuer who is going to not feel pretty disconnected and that disconnection causes them to start to pull away from.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:41.225)
This is the most common for heterosexual females, this pattern, to push forward an anxious attachment for emotional connection but lean away sexually.
George (11:45.27)
Right. Yep.
George (11:53.772)
And then the third one is just moving towards security. Actually, you might be insecure outside the bedroom, but you find the most security inside the bedroom. that’s, again, that’s pretty cool. But this is why the research has been a bit confusing because there’s a lot of movement in an anxiously attached person and how it expresses itself in the bedroom. Those three moves.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:13.351)
Well, I think what was confusing until we read Guri Bernbaum’s article was that the research used to kind of say that people were congruent. If you were anxiously attached, you would be leaning towards sex. And again, shall we move to avoidantly attached? OK. OK, let’s come back and do that. OK, so George, we’re talking about attachment styles and how we
George (12:33.41)
Yeah, let’s come back from breaking going to avoid it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:42.791)
behave sexually. attachment styles, are often, that’s how we come out of childhood with, know, somewhere on a continuum, whether we’re secure in the middle or more anxious or avoidant. And our attachment style probably does inform the way we behave emotionally, but it can be kind of mixed up sexually. We can do almost anything sexually in terms of
whether we lean away or towards sex or whether we’re in the middle sexually. And we’re trying to understand the research about that. And the research used to say, as I was saying a minute ago before the break, that avoidantly attached people often leaned away from sex or they had sex in ways that were not intimate. So maybe for pleasure only.
George (13:26.734)
Yep.
George (13:37.102)
sealed off sex as Dr. Sue Johnson would say. right. It’s emotionally devoid, it’s focused on the physicality.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:40.275)
Sealed off sex, yep.
Right, because sex is so demanding of ourselves. It’s so rigorous in terms of what it demands of intimacy that if you’re leaning away from sex and you’re avoidantly attached, that makes sense. It’s like, why would I want to do this thing that could expose me emotionally? I would prefer to keep distance. And I think people who are avoidantly attached may manage their feelings of desire in kind of
Two different ways. think males typically manage it privately through masturbation, maybe the use of porn, but it keeps their sexual needs under their own control. So they’re leaning away not from feeling desire, but they’re leaning away from having sex with a partner. Females often manage their desire by diminishing feelings of desire. So they also might masturbate.
George (14:26.862)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:44.487)
But they also try, maybe not consciously, but they don’t fantasize, they don’t think about sex. They diminish their own sexual needs. I don’t need anybody to touch me, give me an orgasm. it’s men often dilute their sexual needs, women often diminish their sexual needs when they’re leaning away from sex with a partner.
They shut, women would maybe shut down their fantasy and their arousal.
George (15:16.246)
Right. But diluting or diminishing would be consistent with the avoiding strategy of kind of reducing emotion.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:21.713)
Right. Right. It’s reducing emotion and reducing physicality too with a partner. Right. I’m not going to.
George (15:29.068)
as a gun, right, which would be the consistency, the simplicity, if it just stayed aligned all the time.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:37.031)
Right, if emotional avoidant attachment always meant leaning away, like always meant sexual withdrawal, that would make sense. But it doesn’t, because if you’re avoidantly attached, you actually may lean towards sex. Typically, avoidantly attached people maybe lean, when they’re leaning towards sex, maybe it’s for other motives, right? It could be for that stress relief.
George (15:44.046)
shutting down.
Yeah, but it doesn’t.
George (15:55.214)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (16:06.557)
I got to have sex in order to get to sleep or just pleasure only. You know, it gives me release. It gives me an orgasm. It feels good. That’s reinforcing to me to want more sex. You know, maybe they use it to, you know, have an orgasm, but not necessarily with connection. So it’s not necessarily lovemaking. It’s sex.
I have a girlfriend who talks about that. She’s like, yeah, she’s avoidantly attached emotionally. And she says, but I like sex. mean, why would I not? You know, of course I like sex. And she initiates sex and she wants to have sex and she likes having orgasms. And I say, do you feel closer to your partner afterwards? And she’s like, no, no, mean, no, am I supposed to? You know, she just I mean, hers is very
George (17:01.614)
you
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:07.337)
purely avoidantly attached, but she wants sex because it’s pleasure motivated.
George (17:15.094)
And I would expect the more examples that I would see is people who are emotionally avoidant, but actually come to sex in a way towards security, that this is actually the main way they feel connected. It’s more than just the orgasm. Like it’s where they’re naked and vulnerable. Like any of the stuff emotionally that’s going to happen successfully for them is going to happen in the bedroom.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:40.881)
Right, so now you’re talking about with avoiding attachment, a person who functions sexually that is more like secure attachment. That, you know, maybe avoidantly attached there so they would be emotional withdrawers. Maybe they never learn to be very good with words, right? But touch, they get it. That does feel good. That does feel a little safer. So they function more secure. Sex is a wordless way to connect.
George (17:48.355)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:09.999)
and it truly is about love for them. You know, they feel the safest during physical connection. Maybe even they experience sex as bonding. In all the ways that we experience secure sexuality, they experience that as well.
George (18:30.86)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:33.617)
So we’ve got three types of attachment. We’re not going to get into disorganized attachment right now because that’s just wildly complicated. Three types of attachments, secure attachment, anxiously attached, and avoidantly attached. Secure attachment, they like sex. It feels intimate. They like the intimacy of sex. Anxiously attached, there’s three different ways that they might behave. They might be sexual pursuers, leaning towards sex.
but in maybe a little bit more of a frantic way. Sexual withdrawers, they lean away from sex or they might function securely. Same with avoidant attachment. They might lean away from sex, which is congruent. Sex is too emotional, too exposing. I don’t want that. They manage it privately, shut down their fantasies and arousal. They might lean towards sex, but not necessarily toward intimacy. Sex is stress, relief, pleasure.
but they may function more securely. And I think we see a lot of men who are avoidantly attached or lean toward avoidant attachment, but actually function sexually more securely. They want to make love to their partner. It’s not that they just wanna get off, but they actually want to have pleasure with this person and express themselves physically.
George (19:44.994)
Yeah.
George (19:55.566)
you
I would love to get Gareed on our podcast and have some of this discussion because for my brain, for my brain, if there are two separate motivational attachment systems, emotional and sexual, why can’t you have different attachment styles in both systems? Why can’t you be a pursuer emotionally and actually be an avoiding style sexually? Like why do we have to force them into one style in both systems? Why can’t we have to, you know, that would make more sense to me.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:03.121)
Let’s do that.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:24.861)
Mm-hmm.
George (20:28.336)
that in the, you know, in the crisscross couples that you have a man who’s emotionally avoidant and sexually anxious. Cause that’s what happens when you want sex and you keep being rejected over time. Your body is, looks very similar to an emotional pursuer. So to me, I don’t know, it’s just good conversations I have. there’s, there’s not a lot of research out there around the sexual system.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:37.502)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:43.997)
Right.
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:51.101)
Yeah, I love what you’re saying. think it would make so much more sense if we could have almost two attachment styles, one in the emotional cycle and one in the sexual cycle. Yeah, yeah. And I think in some ways, given that actually three, right, when we include secure attachment. Because we could also maybe from childhood.
George (20:59.426)
touch me styles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:19.219)
come out anxiously attached, but through earning security, we act more secure emotionally. You we stay close to the middle and sometimes we go off the rails and we go toward the extreme of the spectrum. You know, we get frantic, angry, critical. Same with avoidant, you know, maybe. I mean, you’re right. Having kind of two attachment styles, but one in…
George (21:37.568)
I’ll. Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:47.015)
the sexual and one in the emotional cycle would kind of make sense to us. I think when I first started looking at, we need to break a little bit here.
George (21:47.201)
each system.
George (21:51.01)
Yeah. So.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:01.865)
Okay, when I first started to EFT and I was reading some of how they handled sexuality, I saw a lot of this in the literature, in the EFT literature, that you were congruent. You were congruent with your style. And I was like, yeah, but that’s not how I see it with people. But I think…
George (22:20.558)
trying to force these styles.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:31.471)
As research gets better, and I do think Uri, we need her as a guest, has done a paper on this, which we need to link people to here in the podcast. It’s making more sense to me, but I think what you said even makes more sense to me.
George (22:47.992)
This is the fun part about having conversations. There are sometimes more questions than answers. And to have a space to be curious, that’s kind of what we’re always pushing for. And if you’re listening and you’re trying to figure out these attachment styles, they’re not a…
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:53.513)
Mm-hmm.
George (23:04.886)
a category that you have for life. can change them. You could go in and out of them. mean, I think we see that a lot. It’s somebody finds some security and then they start getting into negative cycles and they start going back to some of these old strategies. And then they had these great weekends and they come back and they fall back. And it’s an ebb and flow process of these. What were we calling it? Not, not styles, more of a, you were talking about a continuum, right?
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:27.229)
continuum, being on a continuum of the avoidant or anxiously attached way of connecting emotionally. We’re on a continuum, but we’re also on a continuum sexually, is what you’re saying today. you know, we could be anywhere in terms of the direction that we take sexually. So why does this matter? Why are we telling you this? I think to help you understand that
This can make sense, especially if you’re, maybe let’s say you’re a male who leans toward avoiding attachment emotionally, and you’re like, okay, my partner’s always after me to open up emotionally and talk to them, but then when I wanna be in bed with them, they don’t want that, that doesn’t make sense. We’re trying to say, actually, it might make sense, and this is why. And same with if you’re,
George (24:22.082)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (24:27.433)
you know, a female who says, you know, look at my partner won’t open up to me, but they always want me in bed. That doesn’t make sense to me. It’s like, okay, but this is the way maybe they learn a little more secure is touch works for them. Touch is a love language. Touch is a way that they do get secure. It’s a wordless connection. And that’s how they feel safe, right? During physical connection. Even if words don’t feel so safe to them.
George (24:54.958)
I always like to keep it simple. When we’re in a threat response, we have that fight or flight response, right? And we all do some of both, but these tendencies that we develop, they start to become automatic. They start to become unconscious. We don’t even realize we’re doing them. So we could be getting along great and all of a sudden there’s a threat and boom, these things come back from the past and they inform the present. So your ability to be curious about, know, what have I done in the past when threatened?
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:00.157)
Mm-hmm.
George (25:23.746)
You know, chances are you got a likelihood of doing those things in the future. And if you could name that, you start to have some choice to be, do I want to continue doing that? Or maybe I’m in a different relationship now where I can have a different outcome.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:36.393)
I mean, I think you’re right. The simplicity is, am I moving away or toward? Am I pursuing or am I withdrawing? And then how do I do something that is a little more secure so that I’m not triggered? And when I get triggered, how do I slow down enough so that I can manage my own reactivity, my own triggers, remembering that if I do the instinctive thing, which is to defend or to attack,
It’s only going to trigger my partner. So what else can I do instead?
George (26:10.368)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:12.713)
Okay, that was, are you clear, clear as my George?
George (26:16.366)
I like the fluidity now in that you’re naming how anxious or avoiding can go all three ways and that continuum really makes it, I think, more applicable. But maybe when we come back another time, we’ll be breaking news that there actually is two different attachment styles. It would make more sense to my brain that way, but who knows?
Laurie Watson, PhD (26:41.915)
Yeah, exactly. Okay, great. Come on the podcast. We love you. Thank you for all your work. Okay, thanks for listening.
George (26:51.608)
Keep it hot, y’all. Yeah, we should reach out to Kareet, that’s for sure.
