Welcome Brave Lovers! Today we are exploring the work of psychotherapist Ruth Cohn, and her research on the effects of childhood neglect.
Join Laurie and George as they tackle the sensitive topic of childhood neglect on the adult intimate relationship. Our hosts share how not having physical or emotional connection at key times of struggle, creates an emptiness. We are often left without words to describe our experiences or comforting touch.
They highlight the dilemma of healing and how getting connected in adult relationships can create fear. Often the thing we need is blocked because we sometimes don’t know how to manage when we get what we need. Listeners will learn how to put words to these places, understand more about your needs and how therapies like sensate focus work.
Take care with this episode and share your feedback on our socials @BraveLoveGreatSex
Don’t forget to pre-order a copy of our book today!
Check out this episode’s sponsor (and help the pod!)
Uberlube.com — Laurie’s long-time favorite lubricant! Order some today!
Transcript
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:19.402)
George, what do we do when somebody says, I really don’t want sex? I don’t think about it. I don’t want it. I don’t care if I ever have it again.
George (00:32.238)
That’s where we refer them out, No?
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:34.41)
Well, let’s talk about maybe that there might be something that’s going on inside them that’s deep. And I would love to use Ruth Cohn’s work to talk about this.
George (00:46.734)
beautiful.
Laurie Watson, PhD (00:48.49)
Okay, our book comes out September 15th. Woohoo. Our Brave Love Great Sex Retreat is November… what is it? Okay, our Brave Love Great Sex Couples Retreat online is November 14th. And today we want to just talk about Ruth Cohn, who is a writer and a sex therapist. She’s been around for a long time.
George (01:00.398)
14.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:17.406)
doing great work and she wrote a book that was called The Silent Impact of Childhood Neglect. And we want to just talk about how this might impact adult libido, particularly in women and what it might mean when they say, you know, I don’t think about it. I don’t want it.
George (01:39.022)
Yeah, I’d want to start off, you know, where she came up with it was she ran a group of men that had all kind of been divorced and separated and families broken up. And, I think it was eight to 10 men in a group. And she tried to get into some of their family of origin and all, all 10 of them described it as, okay, you know, it was just a good normal family. They didn’t have any descriptive words to describe their experience.
Laurie Watson, PhD (01:59.114)
Mm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:08.67)
Mm-hmm.
George (02:08.974)
You know, and that’s where she started to come up, hey, wait a second. You know, they actually didn’t develop some of the neural pathways to put words to the loneliness, the lack of co-regulation. Like there were so many moments in our life that if we don’t get another nervous system to help us put words, find meaning, share with us, like we develop an absence of, you know, a distance from that experience. And so many of these men,
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:23.274)
Mm-hmm.
George (02:37.482)
You know, just were pretty distant. They had low levels of engagement emotionally in their own lives and their retelling of their stories.
Laurie Watson, PhD (02:45.842)
Right. Sometimes when they say it was pretty normal, first of all, they don’t know they’re not comparing to other childhoods. And maybe what they’re saying is nothing bad happened to me. I didn’t suffer any, you know, trauma that I can think about. But I think in her work, she talks about how neglect is a trauma in itself, particularly, I think, for our
George (03:00.663)
Yes.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:13.34)
listeners. It’s the neglect of touch, the neglect of affection and soothing. You know, I think as my husband and I have worked through many issues in the pursue-withdrawal cycle sexually, that is one of the things that has come up for us. You know, I came from actually lots of trauma, but there was good affection. My husband came from less overt trauma, but there was a lot less.
George (03:16.525)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (03:43.018)
attuned touch and affection. You know, he didn’t have that sense of safety. I can run to my mother, grab my mother’s legs and she’ll pull me up and comfort me. You know, they’re just, you know, she was also a trauma survivor and I think her touch was not that attuned and she didn’t know how to regulate her children well with that. She just wasn’t wildly affectionate.
George (04:10.241)
love roots line when she says nothing is not nothing. Right when you receive nothing that is a trauma.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:19.219)
It is a trauma.
George (04:19.437)
I would use the words co-regulation. When you don’t get co-regulation, when you’re left alone in these places of struggle or in places of good things, your body doesn’t hold onto it, doesn’t create those islands of security. So when you talk about your husband not getting touch, it’s like there’s a longing there, but that longing is not met. And to survive that longing not met, you gotta then suppress longings. So there’s a cost to nothing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:24.297)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:34.387)
Right.
George (04:49.247)
right, which is your aliveness. There’s a deadness that happens with two chronic of a nothingness.
Laurie Watson, PhD (04:55.57)
Yeah, exactly. I think if you don’t have the safety of comfort from another attachment figure, your parent, your mother, your father, then because we need it so desperately as children, we need to be touched so desperately. And when it isn’t coming, we have to survive. so one really adaption, know, adaptable way of coping with that is to
shut it down. I won’t need. And so then in adulthood, when you have the opportunity to need and get those needs met, it’s like, I can’t even let it break the surface. I call it an inner vow, an inner vow that says, I’m never going to need that again. And then, you know, you’re in an adult relationship that’s sexual and desire is something that your partner expects and wants and you’re deprived of because it’s not safe to desire. You know, you miss out with this
lock inside this inner vow, you miss out on all the wonderful delight and touch and sexuality and playfulness that might happen, could happen to actually heal this. It’s so circular. The very thing that is needed to heal this place of neglect is blocked because it’s so fearful to need it again.
George (06:18.317)
Yeah, the person is the source of healing, but also the source of the threat. So that that’s a very paralyzing situation that a lot of people then just don’t do anything with. And it’s the lack of action that we’re so we’ve talked a lot about the lack of touch, especially early hood early in life. I really want to kind of fast forward a little bit towards the developmental, you know, coming into puberty and adulthood like also the lack of
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:30.815)
Right.
George (06:48.049)
sexual touch doesn’t develop, you know, and I think this is where men have a bit of a second chance, right? They get testosterone and a lot of them find the power of touch through sexuality, which is why sexuality is so important. It’s so much more than just an orgasm. It’s how they feel seen, known, love safe, all this good stuff happens through the sexual encounter, you know, but for a lot of women, this is another area now of neglect.
Laurie Watson, PhD (06:56.007)
Absolutely.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:12.254)
Yeah.
But I would say this is why we work in sexuality because it is so intense. It’s so intense. It can actually heal these places that have not gotten enough touch, soothing and regulation. The intensity of it breaks through that inner vow and heals that place. I mean, there’s something so powerful, I think, in sexual desire and sexual orgasm.
George (07:22.679)
Yeah.
Laurie Watson, PhD (07:45.15)
that can heal us.
George (07:48.11)
But it’s a big jump for a lot of women to make, right? If you haven’t had a lot of touch and your body isn’t super aroused and now your sexual encounters are unremarkable or not that great. Like we get why a lot of women don’t want to have sex. Their body hasn’t gotten, it’s been neglected sexually. They haven’t, they’ve had, you know, lots of breaks thrown on and no gas pedals. And then they’re going to be blamed for not wanting to have sex where, you know, there’s just a history and neglect that we’re trying to save. find yourself there. There’s nothing wrong with
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:03.572)
Yeah.
George (08:18.073)
your body, it doesn’t know what to do because you haven’t been given the successes you’ve needed and deserve to be in a better place.
Laurie Watson, PhD (08:25.448)
Right. And one of the things I’ve written about quite a bit on my Psychology Today blog is that being sexually withdrawing is not necessarily, I don’t like sex. It’s that actually they’re so sensitive to sexual touch that it almost feels dysregulating, out of control, invasive, because it’s going to loose this part of them that does actually intensely long for connection.
but also fears what would happen if it comes. I don’t know what’s on the other side of letting myself get aroused. And so they avoid it, which just reinforces this sense of it’s frightening, it’s scary, I don’t wanna go there. So they dissociate from their sensation that’s happening. As they get aroused, they try not to get aroused. It’s unconscious, they’re not doing it deliberately to hurt their partner. They’re doing it to manage the…
the intense feeling that they have on the inside.
George (09:27.435)
because of the neglect of not having somebody help them with those intense feelings, put words to it. We see this with men all the time in the emotional conversation. They don’t want to be vulnerable because they’re afraid what’s going to happen if they try to slow down and put words to these bad feelings that they have. If they can just keep performing and not paying attention to it, like that’s how they learn to deal with it. Like this is the flip side of that same coin. I mean, and I think that’s an important contribution because a lot of people just assume, let’s say,
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:32.606)
early.
Laurie Watson, PhD (09:52.094)
Yeah.
George (09:57.572)
know, the wife in this situation doesn’t want to have sex because they’re not interested in all. Right? And what you’re saying is there’s actually a fear there, right? There is an arousal, there is a desire, but that because that hasn’t had a lot of success, it’s, it’s, has to be dampened down. And now, you know, that the history of that neglect just keeps playing it forward.
Laurie Watson, PhD (10:20.018)
Yeah, well, I think what I’m saying is, is that they often mute their sexual desire and their sexual arousal because of the fear of what it will awaken inside them, the hunger of what they didn’t get, how they were deprived and neglected in childhood. That hunger is it’s like a monster now, you know, on the inside, like, there’s so much need there. And I’m so fearful if I didn’t get it.
from people who said they loved me, who brought me into this world. How can I trust that, yes, if I give this over to you and let it happen, that you’ll keep giving it to me and I’ll get as much as I need? It’s almost like this voracious hunger that they can’t recognize inside. The neglect caused the hunger. And now, even though the answer is available, they’re fearful of that because this place inside is going to need
know, to be mourned, to be grieved, you know, to be felt again, the pain of not having had enough of it as a child to having been neglected. And sex is a big, big touch point for that. You’re curious about what.
George (11:29.463)
I’m curious.
George (11:35.584)
I’m curious how many, and hopefully we get some feedback from our listeners, how many women are shaking their head being like, you know, I don’t know. I don’t feel a hunger. Right. It’s I think it’s important to say a lot of this might be outside your awareness that, know, that your body does have a longing and hunger were made that way. But, you know, if you’ve suppressed it your whole life, you might be hard to access that hunger. Right. But I mean, again, a lot of women I work with, they wouldn’t feel a hunger. They feel an absence.
Laurie Watson, PhD (11:43.774)
Mm-hmm.
George (12:05.847)
They feel, you know, they feel that they feel avoid. They use the word emptiness, right? Which is pretty typical of somebody who’s disconnected from their bodies because they haven’t had a lot of success. That’s what the body does to avoid. But yes. So why are we avoiding? Because there’s some threat there that oftentimes then they neglect never helps us name.
Laurie Watson, PhD (12:27.474)
Yeah. So I think that we have to distinguish a woman who’s saying, I feel nothing sexually because they don’t have a lot of testosterone as females don’t that trigger desire from a woman who has struggled with true neglect. And we’re talking about a subset here of women who did not get enough affection in childhood. And that has that is kind of the root cause of their sexual withdrawal in
adulthood, right? I just want to distinguish that. And these women, yeah, I would say that sexual desire and connection may be something they’ve never longed for. Maybe they had a few orgasms, maybe it was good right when they were dating. And that flush of being in love and falling in love overcame their resistance to that union and that sense of vulnerability that comes with being sexual.
But then as soon as they’re married, they kind of come back into this is not safe almost because marriage is a place where familial kinds of dynamics are reenacted.
Yeah, and it becomes unsolvable because they desperately need closeness, Cohen says, but they’re also, they feel terrified of needing anybody.
George (13:51.213)
Well, let’s come back and pick this up and maybe we can all play some new moves here.
Laurie Watson, PhD (13:55.805)
Okay.
George (14:03.937)
We gotta go. right. I’m man, we took too much time. So.
a couple from Ukraine, a whole family of 10 people I’m about to see.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:15.634)
at 11.
George (14:17.417)
So yeah, I mean, this is the tragedy. Yeah, let’s finish it.
Laurie Watson, PhD (14:20.286)
Wait, are we going forward? Okay.
George (14:24.205)
So this is the tragedy of neglect, right? We wind up doing to ourselves, you know, if women now get married and for good reasons, they haven’t had to touch, they have a little few orgasms, it’s good, but now every day life kind of puts them back in a place of doing it out of obligation, their body’s not having a lot of success, which is the typical story.
Right. And now of a sudden they get pathologized. There’s something wrong with them. And they start to believe there’s something wrong with them. And then their body shuts down more and more. It’s the lack of touching co-regulation of their bodies that is continuing to make magnify this problem. So how do we, you know, get these women to say there’s nothing wrong with the math of neglect that has gotten them to this place, but do they want to continue living that way? Or do they want to try to get some reps to kind of get their body reacquainted with
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:03.465)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:07.978)
Mm-hmm.
George (15:17.77)
Positive touch.
Laurie Watson, PhD (15:19.274)
Mm hmm. And needing positive touch. This also is a place that I see women who can’t orgasm. You know, it’s like letting go into the abyss and feeling and not knowing what’s going to happen to them is so frightening because it’s that explosive experience of, you know, touch and sensation that is going to basically trigger them.
And so they’re very frightened, but like you said, this is unconscious. You know, it’s very hard for them. They dissociate from their prior experiences in childhood and it impacts their sensation. They’re shutting it down, closing it off, and it becomes unsolvable then because they can’t find the pleasure in it, which would make them long for and be comfortable with intensity.
You know, they’re too fearful of that. They’re pulling back. And then, of course, we know what that does to the pursuit withdrawal cycle, right, for their partner who doesn’t understand, who just says, you know, what’s wrong with you? And they don’t know, you know, and maybe they say, you know, their partner often will tell me, I think they were molested. But there really is no memory of molestation. And there is no sense of that happened. But what does we do discover is it was the lack of touch.
So how can we get them, George, to become safe with touch when they’ve been so dysregulated by not having touch as a child and making all these inner vows?
George (17:01.469)
find it helpful to start off with where they often show up, which is dead, the deadness of feeling nothing, like just that they’re being present with that instead of just not listening to it. Right? that’s a red brain response.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:07.134)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:13.226)
And that’s really the red brain, right? That’s red brain. When we are just, we have to shut down completely, that’s a red brain response to a threat. So their partner wanting them, which ideally should be good news, feels like, my God, I’m literally being chased by the lion.
George (17:34.281)
Yeah. And if you can get them to touch the deadness, you could also get them to start trying to get away from the deadness, which is their body’s fight or flight response, that yellow brain response that’s trying to give them some agency over something they’ve had totally no agency over. Right. So trying to kind of be present and witness part of their story that no other human has witnessed. I mean, what a vulnerable thing to do.
Laurie Watson, PhD (17:58.194)
Yeah, exactly. And how would you coach a woman to do that?
George (18:04.817)
I think to just be able to, I think the therapist or the partner being able to kind of tolerate the space of not knowing, expect that that’s exactly what’s gonna show up there, to be able to validate their willingness to try to fight for a part of themselves that has been kind of shut off for all these decades.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:23.998)
Yeah, yeah. And I think this is probably the one place I do use Sense8 Focus, you know, because learning to just take in touch that sometimes doesn’t even feel good, but being able to tolerate it, to translate it, like, okay, what would feel better in parts that are not their genitals, their breasts, their buttocks, just taking in touch in a way that maybe starting with their shoulders or their arms.
George (18:29.772)
Yeah.
George (18:34.061)
Hmm.
Laurie Watson, PhD (18:53.534)
finding a place where touch can feel safe, touch can feel pleasurable, scalp rubs, hair brushing, things that they might’ve missed as a child, right? know, what mother doesn’t scratch their kid’s head, or brush their hair and all of that. Things that maybe are touches that can be soothing and they can learn to take that in. So many, I work with a couple right now that they were both
George (19:03.137)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:22.566)
survivors of neglect. Their mothers particularly had difficulties with touching for very, very different reason. Love their children, absolutely love their children, but there were problems and trauma. And so they stopped touching their children and now their children have huge difficulty feeling, experiencing.
George (19:31.154)
Good reasons. Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (19:50.832)
wanting to touch each other, there isn’t just this natural thing that says, I want to touch you. That is the grace that I grew up with. Even with the trauma that I grew up with, my mother was very affectionate. I’m a toucher. I love to touch. I love to hug. I don’t even think about it. I touch all day long. I touch everybody that comes within two feet of me. But I think that that was a safety for me.
But I think that many, many people don’t. It is a miracle and a blessing when they do touch their children, like when they overcome this lack of desire to touch, but they are still parents who are affectionate. We got to tell them and celebrate them for that, because that’s a miracle.
George (20:36.236)
Yeah.
George (20:39.593)
I love Sensei Focus too because it really tries to build a structure within a person’s window of capacity, right? And we really wanna help people have success. And sometimes we try a little bit too hard and push people too fast and it just does more of the same. So, you I was working with a couple the other day where it was the husband who didn’t wanna kiss his wife anymore, right? And could it explain why?
Laurie Watson, PhD (20:47.114)
Mm-hmm.
George (21:06.453)
you know, and so I was like, All right, well, you know, if you would do it right now, you just kiss your wife. I mean, they were able to kiss hello and goodbye and nice little smooches, but no open mouth. I’m like, just open your mouth. Let’s just see what happens. Like, let’s let’s try to find words for this fear instead of this vague thing that we keep saying there’s some fear, there’s some fear, we don’t know what the hell it is. Let’s lean into it. And he couldn’t do it. Right. It was outside of his window of tolerance. So this this right, but
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:33.467)
for sure. For sure. It was just a little too fast. Too little too fast. Yeah.
George (21:37.134)
and a little too fast, but we also have tried to encourage people to be brave. mean, they’re trying to make up for decades of neglect, you know, and, sometimes we could be too slow and just respected and did not fight for ourselves in a way that says like, Hey, you got this help. got a partner who’s now willing to do this with you. You’re not alone anymore. You know, you keep surviving, like you’re alone and you’re not anymore. So this is a chance.
Laurie Watson, PhD (21:55.921)
Exactly.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:00.968)
Yeah, and Sunsafe Focus, just for people who are listening and might not know exactly what that is, it’s basically progressive touch that becomes more and more intimate and more and more intense. But it’s structured by the therapist. And I think this is my secret weapon with people like this is somehow or another my brain can always find the half step. You know, when they can’t do that next step, I always find the way the little half step that that will work, because then they as they approximate
George (22:28.332)
Yep.
Laurie Watson, PhD (22:31.112)
deeper and more intimate touch that will heal their skin hunger, right? It stays safe. It stays within their ability to manage those feelings that come up that are fearful.
George (22:44.779)
Yeah. And it progresses, right? It’s just cuddling with clothes on to maybe you just have your top off and non-genital touch. And then it goes to genital touch before it ever gets towards intercourse or something sexual, right? It’s trying to build safety along the way to get people reacquainted with their bodies. Like, what kind of touch do you like?
Do you like firmness? Do you like to be tickled? Do you like warmth? Do you like, you know, there’s so many different ways we like to be touched or not like to be touched. And we don’t really talk about these things. So it’s just setting up a stage where you can start practicing.
Laurie Watson, PhD (23:13.0)
Right.
Yeah, exactly. This couple that I’m working with, you know, she loves back rubs. And I’m like, my gosh, all day long, you got to give her back rubs because this will fill up her bucket of not having been touched enough. And he loves strong hugs, especially from her like really firm hugs. I’m like, all day long, can we get you to do this? But unfortunately, there’s blocks about
touching as well as being touched. You know, their template doesn’t include affection. you know, this is a long work, but it’s healable. I would say to everybody out there who is with a partner who maybe came from neglect, touch neglect, affection neglect with partners, excuse me, Joe, with parents who didn’t touch them enough, there is a way to break through this. There’s always a path.
And I think that’s the good thing about being human is we are looking for a path to heal ourselves. And when we have a partner who’s willing, we can comfort each other. We can support and comfort each other in a way that fills up this hunger that doesn’t feel so scary. Intensity can be survivable and pleasure can be something that is ours.
George (24:35.851)
Yeah, beautiful. And it’s important information. You know, for a lot of people, they do like certain types of touch, they can do it more around pain and comforted and reassurance and vulnerability. But sex often means tapping into positive energy.
right in vitality and that can be scary for somebody that has never really been responded to in that way. So if you find yourself being afraid, you’re right where you’re supposed to be, except this time you have a chance to actually process that fear, name that fear, share it with somebody. So your body has a different outcome with that fear. That is how we heal neglect is by heading right into it. The cure for the pain lies in the pain. That’s what we’re trying to encourage couples to do.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:18.332)
It is. It is so difficult. And Ruth Cohn, we just want to thank you for your work. She’s written two books, Working with the Developmental Trauma of Childhood Neglect and also Coming Home to Passion, which was a book that I read for when I was writing our book, George. So please check those out on Amazon. Coming Home to Passion and Working with Developmental Trauma of Childhood Neglect. If you’ve got a partner who isn’t affectionate, there could be something deeper inside, too. That isn’t about you.
George (25:34.711)
Yeah, beautiful.
George (25:48.654)
Absolutely. Keep it hot, y’all.
Laurie Watson, PhD (25:48.902)
Okay, thanks for listening.
