“Am I a pursuer or a withdrawer? I want to connect emotionally but I avoid sexual intimacy. Why does this happen?”
In today’s episode, our hosts address the reasons partners may switch roles in the emotional and sexual cycles. Join in as Laurie and George address why you show up as the pursuer in the emotional cycle and the withdrawer in the sexual cycle and vice versa. They detail the three attachment styles, why they matter and how they show up in the respective cycles.
Partners may be confused at their flip-flopping in the cycle and our hosts remind us to get curious with ourselves and avoid judgement and criticism. Ask yourself, why might this behavior make sense, what did my blueprint for connection look like, how did I look for connection and feel safe? Laurie soothes the audience as she reminds these patterns are healable and flexibility to have more choices is achievable.
Have a question you want our experts to answer in an episode? Call in to the Foreplay Voicemail and leave us a message!
Transcript
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George Faller [00:01:49]:
Children Shifting positions in the cycles sexual and emotional Lori it can be so confusing. Let’s try to straighten this out.
Laurie Watson [00:01:58]:
Yeah, we gotta help people understand so that it makes sense to them why maybe their partner is one way in one cycle and another way in the other. It just doesn’t make sense. Welcome to Foreplay sex therapy. I’m Dr. Laurie Watson, your sex therapist.
George Faller [00:02:15]:
And I’m George Fowler, your couples therapist.
Laurie Watson [00:02:17]:
We are here to talk about sex.
George Faller [00:02:19]:
Our mission is to help couples talk about sex in ways that incorporate their body, their mind and their hearts.
Laurie Watson [00:02:27]:
And we have a little bit of fun doing it right G Listen and.
George Faller [00:02:31]:
Let’S change some relationships.
Laurie Watson [00:02:33]:
Join us In Arkansas, y’. All. We are going to be there on February 27th and 28th, teaching for therapists.
George Faller [00:02:41]:
AR eft.com meet us there.
Laurie Watson [00:02:44]:
So, George and I hope I don’t know that we’ve made this clear to our readers. We’ve talked about we’re going to write a book, but we are actually writing a book. And the very exciting news is we have sold this book to Penguin, and so Penguin is going to help us. We are so excited about our partnership with them. Yay.
George Faller [00:03:02]:
Yeah.
Laurie Watson [00:03:04]:
Yeah. And so what we really want to show is how attachment theory kind of applies to sexuality. And so we’re kind of talking about how people get that, how an attachment style impacts them in terms of their partnership.
George Faller [00:03:22]:
Right? And attachment is just the ability to connect, right? It’s how do we want to connect? How do we want to become part of something bigger than ourselves, Right?
Laurie Watson [00:03:31]:
And we learn that from our families when we were part of a system, you know, before we got into partnership. That’s the blueprint. That’s our, you know, sense inside of what we do in partnership. So, you know, there’s basically three styles of attachment. And that directly impacts how we act emotionally in the emotional cycle. So there’s secure attachment. We grew up in a family, right? That is economic security, that has clear boundaries, clear rules. Our parents love each other, they are affectionate to us.
Laurie Watson [00:04:09]:
And there’s kind of this sense of somebody cares about what’s happening inside us. Somebody’s planning, oh, this, you know, Johnny’s interested in drawing, so let’s get him smart glasses. Or Mary is, you know, you know, she’s interested in gymnastics. You know, she saw that show. Let’s get her that. There’s. There’s kind of this whole process of parents being concerned, but not only just in activities, but in the emotional world of the child. The parent is trying to attune.
Laurie Watson [00:04:39]:
I don’t understand why you’re having a tantrum. There’s gotta be something inside. And they care about understanding that. So that’s a secure family. There’s emotional connection, there’s affection, there’s economic stability, and there’s plenty of love that goes on.
George Faller [00:04:55]:
Okay, translate that neurologically, right? That is success and co regulation, right? The child’s able to kind of feel an emotion and they get the parents care given to that emotion and it teaches their bodies. Like, this is a good thing to do, to engage, you know, in your emotional world and trust the people around you will respond to it.
Laurie Watson [00:05:15]:
Okay? And when we grow up like that, we actually have A secure style. And the cool thing is we look for partners who are also securely attached. Securely attached children have happier marriages. Instinctively, they look for securely attached partners. It just makes sense to them that people act the way they are going to act in romance. A securely attached person says, hey, I’ll give you a call tomorrow. And you know what they do? You know, I mean, they do what they say they’re going to do. They’re very reliable.
Laurie Watson [00:05:50]:
They make sense if they’re late and, or they miss that phone call, they call you later in the day and they say, you know what? My boss called an emergency meeting and I was unable to call you. I’m so sorry. Still want to talk to you. Can we do it at 8? You know, like the Mrs. And stuff, they just know how to do that to make relationships smooth. Exactly. And so it, it feels really good to be with a securely attached person because the world makes so much sense and that’s why it’s happier. Okay? But, you know, two people in the world got that secure attachment in childhood, and the rest of us, you know, there were probably more misses than, than that perfect little world.
Laurie Watson [00:06:36]:
And so we have insecure attachment styles out of childhood, and there’s two directions that it goes. One, we can be anxiously attached, or one, we can be avoidantly attached. So in an anxious attachment style, you know, there is misattunement, and it kind of goes either way. Like, sometimes we’re looking for our parent to pay attention and they’re busy. It’s like, don’t bother me. Why do you want to keep showing off? You know, stop that. Go play by yourself. Or they’re just unresponsive.
Laurie Watson [00:07:09]:
Other times in a family, sometimes there’s this misattunement that is too much like a parent is overprotective or invasive. You know, it’s like, no, no, Johnny, stop climbing on those bars. You’re going to get hurt. When Johnny’s natural instinct and developmental need is to explore and to try things. And I would say that, you know, sometimes too, you know, maybe it’s the adolescent and the mom is like, okay, you know, I, I need to read your diary. I need to, you know, look at your social media. I need to know everything about that’s going on. I’m not saying that there aren’t good protective reasons sometimes to do that, but, you know, it’s like too much.
Laurie Watson [00:07:50]:
They. They miss a tune or maybe they misdirect. You know, Johnny is playing with blocks and suddenly, you know, the parent comes in and says, don’t you want to paint. It’s like there’s just something that misses. And so the child doesn’t get what they need. And what does the child do? Because they’re egocentric, they believe, okay, I gotta make this work. My parent is not paying attention to me in the right way because there’s something flawed in me. So they over try, okay, I gotta get mom to pay attention when I need, or I gotta get dad to pay attention when I need.
Laurie Watson [00:08:28]:
And so they, they, they try harder. And then guess what happens in a romantic relationship, they’re cued in, in an anxious attachment style. We’re cued into the potential for our partner to miss us. And our body remembers how to over try. And so we’re really vigilant, you know, we pay attention to every little thing that might be going wrong. And we’re always checking in and we’re always kind of pushing to make sure that that supply of attention is going to be there, that our partner will be connected to us, will stay with us. Does that make sense?
George Faller [00:09:09]:
Absolutely. Okay, well, Johnny falls off and not only, you know, he cries, he gets yelled at. You shouldn’t done that. It’s your fault. Right? It’s just that misattunement continue. It’s just math, right? You get much more misattunement than attunement. Your body’s going to protect yourself. And the anxious people mobilized to protest and fight and try to get some change.
George Faller [00:09:29]:
It’s a pretty resilient thing to do.
Laurie Watson [00:09:31]:
It is a resilient thing to do. And I think the thing, you know, we all know that intermittent rewards are kind of the highest psychological reward when you’re sorry, but when you’re training a dog, right in the beginning, you give them a treat after every time they sit, but over time, you only give them a treat every once in a while. And that is very, very, very powerful for the dog to obey the command. Same thing with children, actually. When our parent does pay attention to us, when we get that reward, it’s a very powerful reward. And so our whole nervous system gets trained to over try to get the attention that we need. And in romantic relationship, this is probably what drives, you know, the partner crazy. It’s like, hey, we’re cool, everything’s good.
Laurie Watson [00:10:21]:
Why are you over trying? Why are you so concerned about the relationship? Why is my preoccupation for one day a big problem? It’s because as a child we had to always keep trying. Okay? Anxious attachment, avoidant attachment is different. So in a family that really doesn’t Give even intermittent rewards that neglects the child in some ways. Basically, the child says, I’m going to become independent. So let’s just imagine Samuel lives in a family where, you know, his parents are very preoccupied, maybe with their careers, or maybe they’re just preoccupied trying to survive. Either survive emotionally or survive financially. And they don’t have much left over for the child. You know, maybe he goes to school hungry and nobody notices that.
Laurie Watson [00:11:18]:
You know, that’s a system of neglect where he’s not getting his maybe basic needs met, but certainly not emotional needs. And maybe it’s more functional than that, you know. Yeah, all the basic needs are met, but emotionally nobody says, how was your day? Nobody cares that his friends were mean, nobody cares what he was doing in school. And there just isn’t enough care. And he says, you know what? In order to do well in life, I gotta stop caring for these people to meet my needs because they’re not going to. Another adaptive strategy.
George Faller [00:11:51]:
Yep.
Laurie Watson [00:11:52]:
Right. So he becomes avoidantly attached. I can’t count on people. That’s the inner message.
George Faller [00:11:59]:
And on a neurological level, that child’s gonna learn to self regulate, right? Their failure and co regulation, they’re not getting it. They’re not getting the exchange to name and put words and, you know, calm their nervous system down. They learn to do that by themselves. So they learn to trust that. They learn to go to the inner world to kind of deal with their emotional reality. They don’t want to let people in because they don’t want to need, because it doesn’t work when they do need, right?
Laurie Watson [00:12:23]:
And, but maybe they do fall in love. You know, they, when they grow up, they’re in their romance, they say, okay, but I want to partner with this person. But instinctually, kind of after that early stage of falling in love, their sense of how the world works in partnership tells them, don’t rely on this person, don’t trust this person, don’t open your heart to this person, don’t open your inner world to them. And so they’re more avoidant, you know, and they don’t necessarily think to share what’s going on inside. And they’re very oftentimes partnered with an anxiously attached person. And all that pestering just feels really overwhelming, feels controlling, causes them to shut down further. Of course, we all know this, right? But as we’ve talked about the problems between pursuers and withdrawers, but in the inner world of the withdrawer, they are operating from, you know, a sense of the blueprint from the family, that it doesn’t make sense to trust and open up. Okay.
Laurie Watson [00:13:33]:
When we come back, George, though, I want to help us understand in those insecure styles that actually the sexual attachment doesn’t follow our families of origin completely. There are influences from that.
George Faller [00:13:49]:
It could or could not.
Laurie Watson [00:13:51]:
It could or it could not. Or there’s just like strains of what we learn from our family that make it really different in the sexual cycle. And I just see if I want to make sense of that for us.
George Faller [00:14:02]:
Sounds good.
Laurie Watson [00:14:08]:
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George Faller [00:15:23]:
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George Faller [00:16:13]:
Right. So we have these three attachments, secure, anxious and avoidant. And we’re going to really talk about that. Anxious and voidant and how it plays out sexually.
Laurie Watson [00:16:23]:
Yeah. Okay. So when, when we partner up, I mean, sex is often in the beginning a driver for us to get partnered. We’re attracted to somebody, you know, we have sex with them. It’s very exciting. And that is actually a positive force for attachment for every style. Secure, avoidant, and anxiously attached. All of that in the beginning.
Laurie Watson [00:16:51]:
And which is why it can be so disappointing in our. When we’re insecurely attached that somehow or another sex goes offline. But this is kind of why so, so securely attached people, for the record, like sex and they enjoy sex and they allow themselves to surrender to it. They’re not really worried so much if their partner sometimes needs a quickie or sometimes needs something else. They want to meet their partner’s needs. It’s like, you know, and as they’re not anxious about sharing their fantasies, I mean, it’s all. It’s pretty smooth. That’s why sex in a securely attached relationship is better because they’re open and securely attached lovers have better sex, have more sex and actually have more erotic experiences over time.
Laurie Watson [00:17:44]:
So that’s the good news.
George Faller [00:17:46]:
And that makes sense because they can communicate, they can repair. They send clear signals, they’re responsive to each other. Other. I mean, all the good stuff with co regulation, they’re nailing it.
Laurie Watson [00:17:56]:
Exactly. But anxiously attached people in the sexual cycle, it’s a little different. So they might be a sexual pursuer, which would make to me more sense. If you’re anxiously attached, you’re always fretting about the relationship. You know, you want to get connected any way you can. That would be talking feelings. That’s in emotional, you know, and in the emotional cycle, but also in the sexual cycle, it would make sense to me that they would want sex because they’re. It’s so close, it’s so intimate.
Laurie Watson [00:18:26]:
And many of them do, you know, men do. Women do like an emotionally attached, an emotionally anxious person.
George Faller [00:18:36]:
Kind of pursues in both cycles.
Laurie Watson [00:18:38]:
Yeah. And feels compelled in the sexual cycle for the reassurance that they get that they are desirable, you know, that it’s. There’s something compelling their partner to want to be with them. So they keep hoping for that to happen sexually, which often does happen kind of naturally early on. They want to recreate that and feel that pop, you know, of, okay, my partner is into me, you know, and that feels deeply Reassuring on a very tangible level. Then not only that, they get an orgasm, you know, so there’s this great big physiological reward that encourages them to keep on pursuing sexually.
George Faller [00:19:24]:
It’s both.
Laurie Watson [00:19:25]:
I get the emotional pop of my partner, you know, finding me compelling and desirable, and then I also get the physiological reward of an orgasm. You know, could there be anything better? But anxiously attached people, we’re neurotic. You know, there’s this little neurotic part inside of us too that, you know, maybe partly that childhood sense of the reason my parent doesn’t pay me attention is because I’m not worthy. That keeps me, you know, sort of anxious about that in the sexual cycle. That can predominate. So they might become a sexual withdrawer because they don’t feel attractive enough. They don’t feel good enough. They don’t feel like their body is worth looking at or being touched.
Laurie Watson [00:20:14]:
And so that poor body image or the sense of they’re worried about their performance. I’m not a super lover. I’m having ed. I’m not reaching orgasm. All of these things actually can shut down an emotional pursuer from daring and risking in the sexual cycle. So they become sexually avoidant, they become sexual withdrawers. They kind of feel like, you know, okay, I’m not desirable. And so then they avoid and stay away from sex.
George Faller [00:20:48]:
Yeah, I like you’re trying to explore. I mean, it would make sense. You’re the same in both. But what we find is the opposite. Right. Especially a lot of female pursuers emotionally become the sexual withrorers. And we’re trying to understand how that happens. And, you know, I do think there’s a lot to be said when they don’t.
George Faller [00:21:07]:
They’re frustrated, not getting the emotional closeness, and they need that to feel safe sexually. And then their partner comes for them and it puts their body in a position that says, hey, wait a second, I’m not really wanting this right now or needing this right now. And you’re pushing for it right now. So it puts their body on the defensive. Right. And then it’s. The more that happens, the more sex becomes something that they want to avoid instead of something that they would push for. Because you think that’s what they would do when threatened.
Laurie Watson [00:21:36]:
Yeah, I mean, you’re talking about the cycle influence, which is also true that, you know, frequently an emotional pursuer is kind of shut down maybe by the demand of a partner who is a sexual pursuer. So the emotional. That makes sense. But I’m also talking about the attachment style issue. Intrapsychically why does it make sense for them slightly apart from the cycle, like what they’re going through on the inside, that has to do with other things that, why they’re making these choices. I think that’s too strong of a word. It’s all unconscious really. But why they’re leaning toward pursuit or withdraw in the sexual cycle inside themselves having to do with their attachment cycle.
George Faller [00:22:28]:
And again, so what I hear you saying is that their own neurotic kind of anxiety causes them to have so much inner stress and maybe unliking body parts like that, that inner critic starts to shut down their sexual energy. It gets harder to access because that.
Laurie Watson [00:22:49]:
Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, I mean, we know there’s a cycle influence, but I’m talking about there’s this other part that they are experiencing that is shutting them down aside from the cycle. Their own sense of unworthiness, poor body image, poor performance. I mean, we know, right, that think about it from a male who, you know, maybe in the past he was the sexual pursuer, but he becomes the sexual withdrawer. He’s. He’s an emotional pursuer, but suddenly he’s got ED and so he feels really anxious about that. So he stops pursuing. He actually feels desire in his body.
Laurie Watson [00:23:35]:
You know, he has all that testosterone still going, but this new interruption, he’s like, stop. He withdraws because it feels humiliating for him, you know, with his ed. And that’s not really cycle related, that’s intra related. Okay, that, that’s an exception. But.
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Laurie Watson [00:24:54]:
Let me just end by talking a little bit about, and I know this is complicated, but I think it’s important for Us to understand our partner. Like it. You don’t make sense to me. This is a little bit about what’s happening inside them. So the emotional withdrawer might be a sexual pursuer. We’ve talked about this endlessly.
George Faller [00:25:16]:
Are you often talking about testosterone gives us a second chance or especially for men, right. If they didn’t get a lot of touch and they’re avoidant to deal with that self regulate, but then all of a sudden testosterone is pushing them towards touch and sex that they now if they listen to that testosterone, they give it spirit space to do its thing, it’s going to start turning them into a pursuer.
Laurie Watson [00:25:36]:
Yeah, I think, I think emotional withdrawals who are male who, you know, have normal testosterone. You’re absolutely right. And I think we need to highlight that they get a second chance at connection. And many men are actually motivated by that secure motive, which is intimacy and pleasure, to want to have sex with their partner. But sometimes the sexual pursuer part of them that gets a little frantic is really, you know, it can be kind of more focused on the physical experience and the fun, not the intimate connection. That’s why it doesn’t land very well with their partner and they get that frantic part. You know, like hookup sex is often motivated by a sexual pursuing part that is really focused on the one aspect of sex which is pleasure, not necessarily getting intimate, you know, in a hookup, you know. And I think this is what goes wrong in the hookup world actually, just as an aside, right.
Laurie Watson [00:26:43]:
Oftentimes one person is saying, I just want pleasure and the other person is entering the experience thinking, okay, we’re really clicking here. We are clicking, you know, so, so that can go wrong. So the avoidantly attached person, the emotional withdrawer can become a sexual pursuer. Maybe it’s the blessing of testosterone or maybe it’s a woman who says, you know, in this way I actually feel more connected. But in pursuit there’s always an anxious element. So there’s always something that enters there that kind of makes it like when you get what you want, it doesn’t quite satisfy. There’s always this need for a little bit more because it’s based in insecurity.
George Faller [00:27:28]:
Does that make sense when it’s consistent? So you’re talking about an emotional avoider, right? That if they’re consistent sexually, you know, they’re going to override their testosterone because something happens in the sexual act that puts pressure on them or makes a demand.
Laurie Watson [00:27:44]:
Right.
George Faller [00:27:45]:
It’s intimate.
Laurie Watson [00:27:46]:
Right.
George Faller [00:27:46]:
So it’s easier to masturbate with no pressure. And now they start to also sexually withdraw because there’s safety in not putting yourself in that position. Like you doing sexually what you’ve learned to do emotionally, which is when there’s stress, you go away.
Laurie Watson [00:28:00]:
Right. And they start, they keep themselves isolated and independent. They literally take their sexual needs into their own hands. They often have, you know, plenty of desire and they, they want sex, but they’re like, I can’t give myself over to this cycle that is erratic, you know, because sometimes my partner wants it, sometimes they don’t. It’s just too much. And so they keep it all to themselves. They just can’t surrender to their partner. It’s.
Laurie Watson [00:28:29]:
It’s too close. And. But the sexual, the avoidantly attached person in the sexual cycle might also become a sexual pursuer, you know?
George Faller [00:28:40]:
Yeah, well, it’s, There are only two ways. There’s. Air is complicated, but there’s, there’s no right or wrong in doing this. So if you’re listening and you’re trying to figure out what it is that you do, and maybe you’re the same in both, maybe you switch roles. Right. Which is inviting a space to be curious about it. Right. When threatened, our body is going to do one or two things and it always makes sense.
George Faller [00:29:03]:
And we’re not pathologizing anybody’s perspective. We’re inviting you to think, all right, if I avoided both, what can I do to have more balance? Or if I pursue in both, what do I do to have more balance? Or if I flip flop roles, like, how do I start getting my partner in the opposite role? I mean, that’s what really secure couples can do, is they can see the bigger picture of what they do, how it impacts their partner and vice versa.
Laurie Watson [00:29:29]:
Yeah. And I think our takeaway is to begin to wonder about, you know, what is behind the reason we become a sexual pursuer or a sexual withdrawer. Right. If we’re, we’re secure and all works pretty well. The sexual pursuer, the sexual withdrawer have elements that are, they have elements from our childhood, from our attachment style that impact the way we act, and those are healable. So the good news is, you know, some of this, as we get better and sort of healed on the inside, we have more flexibility to choose to be more in touch with our sexuality, to be more in touch with our desire and our eroticism, and things can get better in our relationship as well. We’re talking a lot of theory here, George. Thanks for listening.
George Faller [00:30:21]:
Keep it hot. Everyone.
George Faller [00:30:24]:
Call in your Questions to the 4Play question voicemail dial 833-MY-4Play. That’s 833-MY- the number 4Play, and we’ll use the questions for our mailbag episodes. All content is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered as a substitute for therapy by a licensed clinician or as medical advice from a doctor. This podcast is copyrighted by Foreplay Media.
Laurie Watson [00:30:46]:
When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things that people really love. Beautiful, timeless pieces that they’ll wear for years. That’s why I’m going to Quince. From their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which you know I love to the Italian wool coats and everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. I am giving every son of mine one of their cashmere scarves and I’m giving my daughter in laws the cashmere sweaters, different varieties. But I’m so excited. And I am of course wearing cashmere sweaters for the holidays because I’m going to wear. It’s cold and I cannot wait.
Laurie Watson [00:31:21]:
Quince has something for everyone. Every piece is made with premium materials, without ethical, trusted factories and price far below what other luxury brands charge. And their craftsmanship really shows in every detail. The stitching, the fit, the drape. It’s elevated, timeless and made to wear on repeat. Find gifts so good that you want to keep them with Quince. Go to quince.comforeplay for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.
Laurie Watson [00:31:49]:
And that’s Q U-I-N-C-E.com foreplay to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com foreplay Remember our code ‘Foreplay’.
